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Why do guys have to be gay if they are willing to wait for someone more than a warm body to have sex? Absolutely insulting.
Gayness has nothing to do with incels. They want women and their complaint is that they aren't getting any. Women.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
That's not what this group says they're doing. They believe they are forced to wait, not that they want to wait. And they're furious and they hate "society," "feminism" and most of all, women, because of it. Obviously, that's very different from what you're saying.
They're mad because they feel they deserve more than they're getting. They won't accept that the fault is their own, so they blame the women who won't give it to them. Note that at this point they are treating women as objects, not as other people who have wants and needs and likes and dislikes themselves. And those women just don't like the incels. The only way women can spot incels is that guys act that way. It doesn't matter what way he's acting, he isn't doing what he needs to do to get it.
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Originally Posted by ironpony
Well I use to considered myself involuntarily celibate before 2009, but then I read those books on how to achieve getting women, which helped, and I lowered my standards by a lot, and that worked for me. Not sure if it will work for other guys, being forced to wait, but I thought I would mention it.
That's the way to lose your virginity (celibacy). You just lower your standards until you make the grade. (Please practice safe sex.)
Once you've made the grade you just start raising your standards and select which level you are comfortable with. The higher you aim the fewer dates you get.
Gayness has nothing to do with incels. They want women and their complaint is that they aren't getting any. Women.
Do they want women or do they just say they want women?
Do they hate Chad because they can't be Chad or do they hate Chad because they can't be with Chad?
I don't know the answers to those questions, but I do wonder.
And despite labeling themselves involuntary celibate, it seems that incels do have opportunities but they go out of their way to avoid sexual encounters.
Why?
I have a feeling that the overwhelming majority of incels have a small penis.
... despite labeling themselves involuntary celibate, it seems that incels do have opportunities but they go out of their way to avoid sexual encounters.
Why?
Approach-avoidance conflict, fear overriding their desire for dates/sex/relationship. Men fear rejection so maybe incels rig things so that any chance of being rejected is near zero because the chance of asking anybody out is near zero. They just set arbitrarily high standards to achieve zero success, and then they can justify complaining about it. — I'm pretty sure all of us know people who love to complain about things. A lot of our topics are just like that: venting.
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Originally Posted by redplum33
I have a feeling that the overwhelming majority of incels have a small penis.
It would be interesting to hear your chain of logic on that one!
... despite labeling themselves involuntary celibate, it seems that incels do have opportunities but they go out of their way to avoid sexual encounters.
Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound
Approach-avoidance conflict, fear overriding their desire for dates/sex/relationship. Men fear rejection so maybe incels rig things so that any chance of being rejected is near zero because the chance of asking anybody out is near zero. They just set arbitrarily high standards to achieve zero success, and then they can justify complaining about it. — I'm pretty sure all of us know people who love to complain about things. A lot of our topics are just like that: venting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redplum33
I have a feeling that the overwhelming majority of incels have a small penis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound
It would be interesting to hear your chain of logic on that one!
I think it's the main reason for their avoidance. You say it's fear of rejection; I say it's fear of embarrassment.
But it seems these involuntarily celibant guys, or at least some of them choose not to lower their standards and remain virgins, and remain angry and frustrated because of it, right, so if that's the case, then what's the REAL reason why they won't lower their standards?
You say it's fear of rejection; I say it's fear of embarrassment.
The inherent message of rejection is that you’re not worthy. Add to that the fear of being cruelly and/or publicly rejected, the fear of being treated as creepy or a threat, and the fear of asking someone out who is already in a relationship, and I’d argue that for some rejection and embarrassment go hand-in-hand.
I cannot support the incel movement because of their anger, bitterness, and negative toxicity. However, I think these guys are created because struggling guys have been treated poorly most of their lives. It starts in childhood where boys are bullied and shunned because they act and look different. A kid might be socially awkward. He might spend all his time studying and playing sports. His parents might be cold and unaffectionate. He never went to the gym and had new clothes because his parents didn't have the money.
Then in high school, he tried to ask a girl out. He gets rejected. The girl rejects him and starts gossiping about him with her friends. They avoid him. This happens several times. It continues into college where again he gets rejected and ostracized. He tries to ask his friends and family for help. They tell him that he's a wonderful guy and that he should not change. He doesn't accept that advice because he knows that's not working.
After college, he joins some young adult groups. Again girls reject him and he gets ostractized...again. Eventually, he becomes more passive due to all the blows to his self-esteem. A cute girl tries to flirt with him. He doesn't pick up on the signal and fails to ask her out. He tries asking for help on different relationship boards. The people on the boards are harsh and tell him to stop being so picky. Stop pining over models.
He finds the advice offensive. However, desperately, he does date a woman online that likes him even though he is lukewarm about her. It naturally ends due to his lukewarmness. Eventually, the guy becomes bitter because he thought he would live the American dream with a wife if he went to school and had a good job. But no, he is a failure because he committed the crime of wanting someone "outside his league". He becomes bitter when he sees cocky, obnoxious guys get the same girls he is pining after because the cocky guy has attitude and throws parties. Eventually, the nice guy joins one of these incel communities.
I know that these incel communities are awful places. However, society should hold some responsibility. Shouldn't you be teaching struggling guys basic things like fashion and hygiene over lowering standards? I go outside and see guys look awful. They look like that their mothers bought their clothes for them. I don't think lowering their standards will improve their fashion sense. A guy is rightly considered a failure if he fails to do the research to find great advice regarding fashion, body language, and dating. However, I don't understand why you are partly responsible in a small way if a struggling guy fails to improve if you fail to tell him what he is doing wrong.
I see women outside the Internet spend a lot of time, effort, and money to look their best. Yet, the women in the Internet message boards can't tell guys to look their best? I thought women were fashion experts. I know a couple of guys over fifty years of age who are clueless about dating. They never complain. I wonder whether any women in their social circle ever called a timeout and told them what they're doing wrong.
I know that these incel communities are awful places. However, society should hold some responsibility. Shouldn't you be teaching struggling guys basic things like fashion and hygiene over lowering standards? I go outside and see guys look awful. They look like that their mothers bought their clothes for them. I don't think lowering their standards will improve their fashion sense. A guy is rightly considered a failure if he fails to do the research to find great advice regarding fashion, body language, and dating. However, I don't understand why you are partly responsible in a small way if a struggling guy fails to improve if you fail to tell him what he is doing wrong.
I see women outside the Internet spend a lot of time, effort, and money to look their best. Yet, the women in the Internet message boards can't tell guys to look their best? I thought women were fashion experts. I know a couple of guys over fifty years of age who are clueless about dating. They never complain. I wonder whether any women in their social circle ever called a timeout and told them what they're doing wrong.
You make a good point in the first part of your post (which I didn’t quote): it can be difficult to keep trying in the face of rejection. Many people, both male and female, don’t turn hateful because of it. These incel guys seem sociopathic.
You are making assumptions that people have not tried to teach them hygiene and dress. In some cases, perhaps no one has—there are always a few. But in other cases, I am sure people have tried and been disregarded. As a parent of sons, I can tell you that it wasn’t always easy when they were teens! Fortunately, they shaped up.
Lastly, you are placing blame and responsibility for the behavior of these men on women. You state they dress as though their mothers bought their clothes for them (this appears to be a negative), while then calling out women in their social circles for not making them over because, in your thinking, women are fashion experts. These incels have the ability to communicate online. They can read about fashion, hygiene, etc., and ask questions in online fashion forums. Aren’t they doing that?
There are many men who are well groomed who have great fashion sense all on their own. There are many guys who are “getting girls.” Maybe you should be asking whether or not any MEN in their social circles have ever called a timeout and told them what they are doing wrong.
Do you think that if incel men blame a lot of this on feminism, that they could try going after women who are anti-feminist? The last gf a couple of years ago, was always saying how much she hated feminism, and how's it's ruined, this and that, etc.
She was from Chile, so maybe people from different cultures, would be more date-able to an incel man maybe, if the culture does not have a lot of feminism in it compared to some cultures, perhaps? Or, is finding women who don't believe in feminism, narrowing the odds even further to find a mate then?
Do you think that if incel men blame a lot of this on feminism, that they could try going after women who are anti-feminist? The last gf a couple of years ago, was always saying how much she hated feminism, and how's it's ruined, this and that, etc.
She was from Chile, so maybe people from different cultures, would be more date-able to an incel man maybe, if the culture does not have a lot of feminism in it compared to some cultures, perhaps? Or, is finding women who don't believe in feminism, narrowing the odds even further to find a mate then?
Sure, there are more traditional women out there, but part of the problem is that these guys have a really warped idea of what feminism actually is. They say that they want an "old-fashioned" woman, but one who will ask them out and pay for dates, and who will have sex before marriage. That's not being traditional. And even traditional women want a man who respects her, not resents her nor is objectifying her to make himself feel less socially impotent.
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