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Old Yesterday, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,434 posts, read 6,600,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
Well, I do believe in extenuating circumstances. If you lie to save your life, or to protect someone, or to lessen a burden to someone, then I can accept that. And sometimes a white lie saves a person hurt feelings.

But to lie because it is fun? Or because it makes you seem interesting? Or because it gets you off the hook for a foul up? Then, I don’t want to know you. I can’t trust you.

As to your postings about lying and then having to keep the secret of your lie forever, I agree. Much mental effort will have to be exerted to truly keep the secret.
OK, also responding to a few other concepts from a few other posts... When it's a toxic person and the lies are part of their toxicity, and they use them to control and manipulate, then I keep those people out of my life. Got no time or space for bad juju here.

Incidentally, I also believe that some people who learn lying skills early and are very good at it, might also be people who "read" nonverbal information very well. I can often tell when other people are lying. That doesn't mean I know specifically or clairvoyantly what exactly they are lying about or what the truth really is, but I get the sense that something is off. With people who lie just to make their life stories more interesting, I don't reject them utterly because of it, but I keep careful boundaries there. I won't place my trust in them, but I might enjoy just hanging out with them and taking them for entertainment value. But the majority of my friends are not people I'm deeply tied to in life anyhow. They are just people that I see when I'm out at a thing and they're also at the thing. I don't tend to make the kind of friends where we expect to have each other's backs, rely on one another. I usually ask very little from most people. I don't expect people to be there for me. Even if they said they would. I assume it's polite lip service.

If I'm prepared to count on someone, we're talking about a committed life partnership, and that's really about it. Anybody else, I don't have much expectations of them being reliable or whatever. "If you need anything, just let me know" in a time of hardship, is just a thing people say--it means nothing most of the time. At least my life experience has taught me this. I don't lend money. If I can afford it, I give it, if someone wants to pay me back, don't bother with a promise, just do it. So essentially I can handle having liars around, because I just withhold a lot of investment from people. I only give what I can afford to lose.
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Old Yesterday, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
11,455 posts, read 11,809,676 times
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I remember a segment that Garrison Keillor did on lying. He pointed out that he was a professional, who got paid for lying. Lake Wobegon never existed. I even had one of his aphorisms engraved on a hip flask once:

"Lying means taking personal responsibility for reality."
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM
 
4,908 posts, read 3,072,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post

I remember a segment that Garrison Keillor did on lying. He pointed out that he was a professional, who got paid for lying. Lake Wobegon never existed. I even had one of his aphorisms engraved on a hip flask once:

"Lying means taking personal responsibility for reality."
I do not understand the meaning of this in bolded black. Please explain. thanks!

I do not understand the following either: (please explain)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post

How about this for a mind-bender: the unconscious liar is the biggest liar of all!
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
74,629 posts, read 66,292,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
https://www.elitedaily.com/life/cult...erstand/964824

The reasons make sense to me, but I'm not one of those people. Only once in recent years have I even pranked somebody.

Is anyone here brave enough to speak about it from a liar's perspective?

Can people like that learn to find satisfaction in telling the truth?
My limited experience with compulsive liars, i.e. those who lie for no reason, and chronically, is that the suffered abuse and trauma as kids. Clearly, it's not normal behavior, so there must be an extraordinary cause at its root. That's how I see it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
11,455 posts, read 11,809,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matisse12 View Post
I do not understand the meaning of this in bolded black. Please explain. thanks!

I do not understand the following either: (please explain)
Make up an attractive enough lie and people will decide it's real. That's how religions get started. Another example is Atticus Finch. Make the story engaging enough and you can change how people perceive reality. Even how you narrate bare facts can change reality. That's how the US ended up with a "border crisis."

Lying is a tool for manipulating reality. Your world view is dictated by the sea of lies you swim in every day. Garrison Keillor created gentle and humorous stories, but they were so attractive that people believed Lake Wobegon was a real place. Humorists are often incisive philosophers. He knew the ability of lies to shape people's reality. He spoke about it at length.

W. C. Fields was another humorist, who came up with "It's impossible to cheat an honest man."

Another of my favorite quotes is by Roger Zelazny: "Doubt is the chastity of the mind." If you find yourself swallowing lies, it's a good idea to ramp up your scepticism. Most of the time, if you believe a lie it's because you want to.

I hear amazing BS issuing from people's mouths all the time. Mostly I ignore it. If the story is entertaining, I'll give them a grin or maybe even buy them a beer.
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Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
19,871 posts, read 13,079,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
My limited experience with compulsive liars, i.e. those who lie for no reason, and chronically, is that the suffered abuse and trauma as kids. Clearly, it's not normal behavior, so there must be an extraordinary cause at its root. That's how I see it.
In one case that I know about personally, that was not true. Liarís sibling informed me in no uncertain terms that I had been lied to. I believed her, mostly because the lies themselves were somewhat strange and imaginative. I believe the person who lied simply wanted to make herself more interesting, and also wanted to gain sympathy.

In another case, I donít know.

In a case I knew of in my childhood, I think it was about seeking attention.

I think these people were pathetic. I really do. I pity them. And I would never trust them. I do wonder how they turned out.
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Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
74,629 posts, read 66,292,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
Make up an attractive enough lie and people will decide it's real. That's how religions get started. Another example is Atticus Finch. Make the story engaging enough and you can change how people perceive reality. Even how you narrate bare facts can change reality. That's how the US ended up with a "border crisis."

Lying is a tool for manipulating reality. Your world view is dictated by the sea of lies you swim in every day. Garrison Keillor created gentle and humorous stories, but they were so attractive that people believed Lake Wobegon was a real place. Humorists are often incisive philosophers. He knew the ability of lies to shape people's reality. He spoke about it at length.

W. C. Fields was another humorist, who came up with "It's impossible to cheat an honest man."

Another of my favorite quotes is by Roger Zelazny: "Doubt is the chastity of the mind." If you find yourself swallowing lies, it's a good idea to ramp up your scepticism. Most of the time, if you believe a lie it's because you want to.

I hear amazing BS issuing from people's mouths all the time. Mostly I ignore it. If the story is entertaining, I'll give them a grin or maybe even buy them a beer.
That's not manipulating reality; it's mani8pulating peoples beliefs about reality.
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Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 5,748,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
My limited experience with compulsive liars, i.e. those who lie for no reason, and chronically, is that the suffered abuse and trauma as kids. Clearly, it's not normal behavior, so there must be an extraordinary cause at its root. That's how I see it.
I don't believe that all liars suffered abuse and trauma as kids. In my family, we have a member who is a liar. I know that this person was not abused or had any traumatic experiences. At one time, I trusted this person. The irony is that she demanded honesty from me---and I gave it to her. Later on, her lies became apparent and I felt betrayed. When she was confronted with her lies, she denied it all saying "That's not true!"

In college, I became friends with a woman who turned out to be a liar. The interesting thing about her, many things she said were true. Plus, she could lie with a straight face and the lies she told were all believable. Some people tell whoppers which are obvious lies. She wasn't like that. Her lies sounded plausible. I discovered what a liar she was when I had a falling out with a friend in common. The liar told me that this friend was so furious with me that she was planning to seek revenge. I ran into the friend and we started comparing stories. The liar was pitting us against each other. At that point, I wanted to be done with the liar. Yet the friend pointed out that the liar hadn't been physically well lately and we should give her another chance. I reluctantly agreed but at that point, I realized what a liar she was and found myself doubting everything she said. It all came to an end when I caught her in a lie and questioned her about it. After that, she drifted away. About a year later, she sent me a letter and asked to "bury the hatchet". I ignored it. After that, I ran into her boyfriend and he said that the liar wanted to talk to me. I told him the she knew how to get it touch. Never heard from her. No great loss.

As for me---I hate to lie. Not to say that I never lied but on those few occasions that I did (mostly when I was a kid) I felt so bad. Sometimes, to avoid lying, I will be deliberately vague. For example, if someone confides in me and another person starts pumping me for info, I will say something like "I don't know" or "I don't know what's going on." Or if there is something going on in my life that I don't want to discuss with others, should the subject come up, I will keep things short. Maybe I'll say, nothing is new or I won't volunteer any detailed info.

Still, I wonder about those who constantly lie. They have to know that a some point, the truth gets revealed.
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Old Today, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,434 posts, read 6,600,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
...

Still, I wonder about those who constantly lie. They have to know that a some point, the truth gets revealed.
It does if you constantly lie.

But no, not every lie ever gets the lid blown off.

My Grandmother told lies that she kept up her whole life. Now she is gone, and Grandpa is revealing some surprising truths that she didn't want him to talk about with anyone. It could just as easily have been he who died first, or both around the same time, and the truth would never have been known.

Some people absolutely can carry lies and keep secrets, right to the grave.

But I think for those who make the choice to lie often, they lessen the odds that the lies will remain intact. Sooner or later the odds will catch up with ya.

Has anyone ever known someone who constantly told outrageous stories that everybody was so very sure were false, and lots of people thought they were a compulsive and constant liar...but then more and more often, they show that in fact that story was the truth and they can prove it. And it comes as a total surprise that actually they don't lie all the time after all... I dated a boy like that back in high school. It was kinda mind bending at times.
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Old Today, 02:52 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
2,791 posts, read 2,200,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
In one case that I know about personally, that was not true. Liarís sibling informed me in no uncertain terms that I had been lied to. I believed her, mostly because the lies themselves were somewhat strange and imaginative. I believe the person who lied simply wanted to make herself more interesting, and also wanted to gain sympathy.

In another case, I donít know.

In a case I knew of in my childhood, I think it was about seeking attention.

I think these people were pathetic. I really do. I pity them. And I would never trust them. I do wonder how they turned out.
I'd thought about imagination as part of it. Attention-seeking also makes sense.
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