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Oh and in cases where I had no choice but to have ongoing proximity to mean people, I found that the best defensive shield is the "no forks given" attitude. If you demonstrate that you do not care, and respond to taunts and their attempts to amuse themselves with cruelty, with complete apathy and full neutrality, calm assertiveness... Well as a woman, I can recall when I got this down in high school, that suddenly I was "terrifying." If I could not be made into a victim, I was somehow a threat, even if I wasn't doing anything to someone.
The only people as adults who feel that way about me tend to be very immature people. But I think that some really do have the mentality there there must be a hierarchy and if someone isn't afraid of them, or won't submit to them, then that person should be feared or is a threat somehow. Some people really struggle with the "just coexisting as equal humans" concept.
But I've tried to help "toxic" people heal... If someone really can benefit from some words of encouragement, I will show right up for that. I'm all about it. But there are some who don't want to budge from a hell of their own making, they want to drag you into it instead. Trying to help them is like dumping positive energy into a black hole, it's an exhausting and pointless waste of time. No thanks.
Thank you for all the thoughtful and interesting comments!
I don't think we are born innocent. We are born as a helpless animal that suffers and desperately needs to be kept alive. Keeping ourself alive and avoiding pain and suffering is priority number one. And it will be priority number one for our whole life (with exceptions of course).
Beyond physical needs, we have social and emotional needs. We need to feel respected and valued and loved.
Taking care of all these constant needs is a hard job.
We learn to be kind and considerate towards others so they will accept us and like us, and will be kind to us in return.
We are naturally loving, but we are also naturally hating. One is not stronger than the other.
Why does someone become a cruel bully or sociopath? Maybe that's the strategy they learned for getting their needs met. Just being loving and kind and considerate and responsible didn't work for them.
And I think we have all found that there are situations where that doesn't work for us either. Maybe being nice to your kids doesn't always get the best results, and you sometimes have to be tough with them. And then they might see you as a bully, for example. Or someone you manage at work needs to be criticized.
I'm just thinking out loud. But I think goodness and badness are all relative to the situation, and we are all capable of both.
I described my bad experience with Mr. Madd in another thread. Maybe all his frustration and anger towards me resulted from the fact that I prevented him from getting certain needs filled, somehow.
Thank you for all the thoughtful and interesting comments!
I don't think we are born innocent. We are born as a helpless animal that suffers and desperately needs to be kept alive. Keeping ourself alive and avoiding pain and suffering is priority number one. And it will be priority number one for our whole life (with exceptions of course).
Beyond physical needs, we have social and emotional needs. We need to feel respected and valued and loved.
Taking care of all these constant needs is a hard job.
We learn to be kind and considerate towards others so they will accept us and like us, and will be kind to us in return.
We are naturally loving, but we are also naturally hating. One is not stronger than the other.
Why does someone become a cruel bully or sociopath? Maybe that's the strategy they learned for getting their needs met. Just being loving and kind and considerate and responsible didn't work for them.
And I think we have all found that there are situations where that doesn't work for us either. Maybe being nice to your kids doesn't always get the best results, and you sometimes have to be tough with them. And then they might see you as a bully, for example. Or someone you manage at work needs to be criticized.
I'm just thinking out loud. But I think goodness and badness are all relative to the situation, and we are all capable of both.
I described my bad experience with Mr. Madd in another thread. Maybe all his frustration and anger towards me resulted from the fact that I prevented him from getting certain needs filled, somehow.
I get that, but I have never really gotten results from being cruel, mean, or even angry. And I've raised two sons. Stern, serious, sure. Not mean. Mean never really worked. Hell I even was willing to use spanking to a limited extent...a swat on the backside...but it was not a matter of anger or causing pain or harm, it was mostly a hard interrupt on whatever chaotic behavior was going on, a "HEY, STOP, no really, you WILL hear me right now." and only done for a very limited few years when their language and reasoning capacities were not well developed to engage with.
I had control of myself before I ever expected to have control over either of my kids.
In general though, in dealing with humans old enough to communicate even somewhat well, I have not found that it's necessary or effective to be "mean." I can be critical without being mean.
Then there is being unintentionally cruel...THAT, I am prone to sometimes. Thoughtless. I was wrapped up in various issues and broke up with a partner, forgetting entirely that it was a couple of days before our anniversary. Special events mean a lot to this person, so he was very upset and hurt. I felt like a complete jerk! I did not do that on purpose but I still did it. I've expressed a snarky thought meant to be funny but on later reflection realized it was pretty mean, and apologized for it. Things like that.
I can forgive others this kind of thing, pretty readily, if they are willing to acknowledge that they caused hurt and apologize for it.
Murderers, psychopaths, would be at the extreme end of meanness.
But lots of damage can be done just with words. And driving someone to suicide could be seen as a type of murder.
Yes - damage can be done with words, absolutely (but one has to allow it in). That’s why it’s so important to choose carefully our environment and friendships - and strengthen our own emotional health when we are faced with those who wish to damage us with words or gossip. That said, psychopaths and murderers are mentally disturbed, not just ‘mean’. One can’t be ‘sane’ and essentially give up their own life (by murdering someone or attempting to do so).
For me, there is a distinct difference between having been part of the collateral damage from someone's errant outburst or misdeed, and being the target of several instances where someone has actually reached out TO ME to do harm, slander, or manipulate.
Having the ability to recognize both, unless the former results in an appreciable loss, I'm not pursuing them to have the last word. If I see that someone with bad intentions feels the need to interact with me and harass me, you bet I will act promptly to make sure they cannot contact me any longer.
I like to think that labeling someone "toxic" is shorthand for saying, **"Someone who I haven't figured out how to deal with yet."
We all have people like that in our lives and need to remember that it takes two people to create an interpersonal problem.
A good question for my side of the fence is, ##"What about me causes such a strong reaction to this person?"
** Too funny...SO true.
## I know, what is it in me that gets so bugged....when the guy next to me isn't bothered at ALL!
It's all about me...I drew women around me (bosses, friends, a neighbor) that were so like my Mom!
When I had one session with a healer-type...the next day I was free! (2002)
I guarantee I will never in any life draw a domineering-type, horrible person in my field again.
Why?
Cuz I overcame my trigger.
They got nothin on me anymore!!!! That inner child is a savvy, tough-cookie now.
Everybody's your guru (teacher)...all these obstacles to your peace are blessings in disguise to overcome an issue once and for all.
Thank you, Universe, for having a brilliant system to overcome unhealthy strongholds.
## I know, what is it in me that gets so bugged....when the guy next to me isn't bothered at ALL!
It's all about me...I drew women around me (bosses, friends, a neighbor) that were so like my Mom!
When I had one session with a healer-type...the next day I was free! (2002)
I guarantee I will never in any life draw a domineering-type, horrible person in my field again.
Why?
Cuz I overcame my trigger.
They got nothin on me anymore!!!! That inner child is a savvy, tough-cookie now.
Everybody's your guru (teacher)...all these obstacles to your peace are blessings in disguise to overcome an issue once and for all.
Thank you, Universe, for having a brilliant system to overcome unhealthy strongholds.
Some people feed off of the certainty and direction a domineering personality can appear to provide,
others enjoy autonomy and doing things "someone else's way" feels like your efforts only run into a brick wall when they are met with yet another criterion.
So long as this self reflection doesn't result in believing something is WRONG with you for desiring autonomy, a little introspection couldn't hurt, I suppose.
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