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Old 07-11-2019, 08:48 AM
 
Location: ☀️ SWFL ⛱ 🌴
2,458 posts, read 1,690,302 times
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I had bright red hair as a child and I was expected to have a temper because of it. Seriously bad stereotyping, but it allowed me to express anger. People expected me to take no prisoners and so I didn’t. Pleasing people takes many forms and children learn early to not disappoint.

As I grew older, I spoke my mind and accepted the fallout that I would not be liked by everyone. I had already learned that I wasn’t expected to be nice at all times. Being stereotyped is usually a negative, but it allowed me to escape the expected female behavior in my formative years.

Last edited by jean_ji; 07-11-2019 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,005 posts, read 7,386,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
The thing is, Pogue can have his opinion and it doesn't affect the validity of anyone else's opinion one bit. Unless you're counting him as the authority and everyone else as less than.

No need to feel dismissed unless Pogue's the boss.

I wonder how much this affects women's anger unconsciously because we've been subtly influenced since childhood to perceive men as the authority and the real struggle is with learning to affirm ourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
There is a reason to feel dismissed if Pogue's opinion is representative of a large portion/majority of society. That's the whole point of the topic/article.

But there is a chance Pogue was just making a sarcastic joke - hard to tell over the internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I was following Eleanor Roosevelt's very good world view - "Nobody can make me feel inferior without my permission."

*sigh*

Actually I am editing this. Trigger warning, because screw it, I care. Animal abuse and sexual trauma is in this post.

Spoiler
I've mentioned this before. My mental picture of anger is rooted in a couple of experiences. When I was a little girl, a boy killed a kitten in front of me by bashing it with rocks. I was furious. I tried to attack him but was punished for it. He was not punished. I will never forget the sight of his laughing face. Bullies love this. Trigger intense feeling in someone, laugh when they can't do anything about it. I still to this day wish my mind could have spontaneously combusted his face off and I don't give a god damn that he was maybe 8 years old. I cried so hard over that.

There are people...mostly men...I've never known a woman who would...who will read that and smile. They'd have loved to have been that boy.

As a teenager, I knew a girl, well, I walked her home the next morning, who was gang raped by a group of boys. A couple of those boys, I had thought of as friends. Close friends. I thought I could trust. They boozed her up until she was in and out of consciousness. She was so filled with shame. She didn't want anyone to know. No report was filed. I was so enraged, and I confronted the boys, and their response was to laugh...they'd been joking and laughing about the things they'd done to her at school. I won't share the graphic details, but they sure did. Their reaction to my anger was, "What's the big deal, we were all having fun. She didn't scream. She didn't say no." She couldn't. She was not even fully conscious. They did not treat her like a human being. They didn't treat her like a living thing. And they laughed.

And somewhere a man will read that account and he will smile.

And all the anger in the world is useless. Because it does not change a thing. It just makes the bullies, the rapists, and the psychos happy that they got an emotional reaction out of a person with feelings. Push button, get result. Another's pain is their amusement.

Now where this gets really nasty in my head... Is the very serious mistake that people make, where the representatives of one's trauma were all persons of a certain sort, say they have always been male (or in other cases, female, or members of a certain race or religion even, but I'm only talking about my experiences as an illustration of a thing here.) Because of that, we get this very dangerous effect where people project that feeling, that concept, or that judgment on the entire group.

Now hold that thought for one second. And mix it with the notion that these are the people one wants to turn to for love.

The pain suddenly intensifies a hundred times over.

Inside the man I want to love, does that bully live some where... My god.

Should I stay away?

Should I never engage in love?

Can love even be real?

Now I know, that men who have been rejected, judged, or hurt by women, are pretty damn likely to feel the same way. And the antidote to all of this blend of self-damaging and self-limiting fear, anger, and pain, for me at least, is to remember all of the good men. The kind men. The honorable men. The loving men. They are real. That is real. And I hold onto it like a lifeline.

But every time I see a story about a rape in the news and see hundreds of men piling on to defend the guy, needing him to be innocent because as a male he somehow represents them...somehow they are automatically on Team Man, and must work to exonerate any man accused of any thing, and if someone was raped, so what, rape...I mean, is it even a thing?...and if a woman commits suicide well ha ha, and somewhere the bullies are smiling. Every single time, that a woman who has survived horror at the hands of men is told to stop being angry, to sit down and be quiet, to not make trouble for a man's precious life and her own be damned...every time. I know that the bullies are smiling and my anger means nothing. And I wonder if I should cut men out of my life forever. Because at the end of the day, that's all I've got left. To walk away. To be alone rather than in a room with a monster.

But I'm not angry.

I'm just fine.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
22,099 posts, read 14,519,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifty Seven View Post
I've yet to see anyone make a convincing argument that what our society needs right now is more anger.
It does not matter what we need, really. People will have anger. You might as well decide that “our society” does not need more envy. Well, yes. But people will have envy. Sometimes envy would motivate people to better themselves. Sometimes anger motivates us to take action.

But I doubt anyone here is advocating that anyone walk around with free floating anger. You’ve seen the video of the out of control guy at the bagel shop? Pointless, self destructive anger. Yeah, no one needs that. And if it were a female going out of control like that, I’d have to say the same.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:50 AM
 
6,376 posts, read 3,616,897 times
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The world is full of horror. Enough to make everyone but a sociopath enraged.

There is an odd place of contradiction I occupy of accepting that evil fact as a condition of my life and resisting being defeated by it. Accepting that ugly reality makes me strong enough to counterbalance a little of it with kindness. That's hard to do if I am enraged.

And that's the only solution I've been able to manage. So far it works for me. Live in the moment and move ahead. Things can always change then I will need to change, too.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:04 AM
Status: "You are only coming through in waves." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
8,178 posts, read 3,204,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
It does not matter what we need, really. People will have anger. You might as well decide that “our society” does not need more envy. Well, yes. But people will have envy. Sometimes envy would motivate people to better themselves. Sometimes anger motivates us to take action.

But I doubt anyone here is advocating that anyone walk around with free floating anger. You’ve seen the video of the out of control guy at the bagel shop? Pointless, self destructive anger. Yeah, no one needs that. And if it were a female going out of control like that, I’d have to say the same.
People already have anger. Lots of it. We don't need more of it. Apparently we're going to get it, but we'll wish we didn't.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:22 AM
 
Location: West Coast
36 posts, read 5,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I can't deal with being angry.

I'll feel frustrated, annoyed, snarky, indignant, any of 100 other things but not angry. Not rage.

And it isn't because I worry that others will see me as threatening, it's more because they won't see me as threatening enough.

This is because there have been times in my life where I have truly felt righteous rage. As a little girl when a bully was torturing an animal in front of me, when a girl I knew in high school was gang raped by boys that I thought were decent people, that I thought were my friends, that I thought I could trust. And situations like that, I'm boiling with rage, just steaming with fury, but how does anyone react to a petite little powerless girl being angry? They just laugh.

Which makes it so much worse. It feels absolutely helpless. That when I see or hear about atrocities in the world, and I know I should feel angry but it does nothing to feel angry. Nothing. It only hurts me. And the bullies can just laugh, because there is nothing I can do. I'm not some kind of avenger or superhero from the movies. I can help you get your social karma, but that's about it.

But I'm far better off, more effective, less helpless, if rather than rage, rather than anger, I feel calm, cool, and in control. Able to calculate precisely what I can do about a situation, if anything. And in fact, if I do this, if I project to everyone that I am in absolute control of myself even if I had cause to be furious...somehow it scares people a lot more. They take me very much more seriously, than if I were having a screaming, spitting ragey tantrum.

I will gladly give up rage, in trade, for power.
You put my feelings on this subject into words, Spork.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,005 posts, read 7,386,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifty Seven View Post
People already have anger. Lots of it. We don't need more of it. Apparently we're going to get it, but we'll wish we didn't.
I have mixed feelings about your position here.

On the one hand I agree with you because feeling anger, as I've tried to explain, only seems to hurt me. It accomplishes nothing. I feel that I am better off without it, to the sheer extent that is possible.

On the other hand, as I've tried (by perhaps rather extreme means) to explain, what sucks is when there is a VERY WRONG THING that is happening, and no one cares, no one is doing anything to make it stop, in fact it's excused, accepted, enabled or even celebrated... But hey, don't be angry. Somehow that's where the wrong is? In protesting horror, rather than just passively accepting it in our lives or our society?

Where does turning the other cheek become placidly accepting one's victimhood like livestock being brought to slaughter?

Somewhere in the heart of an angry person is a desire, sometimes very well founded, for justice. For wrongs to be righted, stopped.

But then there is the question...does the anger lead to the accomplishment of this? Maybe sometimes. Often no. And yet when someone says that people should not be angry, it really looks a lot like dismissal of their justification for that reaction, when often that justification is absolutely very real, very solid.

In theory, this is why we deal with criminals in a court of law. You take the anger out of the justice and let the rules prevail with logic and debate. In theory. But plenty of times, the heads in a courtroom get hot too, and then there are so very many cases where the justice system in practice fails completely to deliver justice.

Which is why a black man with a tiny baggie of weed is likely to go to jail for a lot longer than a white guy who rapes a kid, in some states, in some courts. Especially if the black guy was a broke nobody and the white guy had a "promising future" (or, in other words, money for a good lawyer.) Is that justice? I think that people sometimes kinda have a right to feel angry over certain things. Even if it doesn't always do much good. Though at least when people get angry enough to act, protesting, fighting for what is right, or writing passionate letters, well, sometimes change can happen.

Marginalized groups have gotten closer to fair standing in our society, because somewhere along the line, people got angry. People said, "ENOUGH"...and action was taken. At some point, and in some situations, a call to set aside anger can sound like a defense of injustice, oppression, and generally wrong things that many do not believe should be tolerated.

Hm. That's a thought. Perhaps anger helps people in defining the intolerable.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,945 posts, read 13,722,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I was following Eleanor Roosevelt's very good world view - "Nobody can make me feel inferior without my permission."
Well, it doesn't make me feel inferior, but I think people were just pointing out that sort of attitude is the very problem.

I don't disagree that the world doesn't need more anger in general, but the double standard needs to change. I'm all in favor of male anger being just as unacceptable as female anger. Just the other day I was seeing Spiderman in the movie theater and some kid started having a meltdown and the parents were taking forever to take her out and some idiot shouted "Get that kid out of here!" The mother screamed back "Yeah no (s word)!" but the father went ballistic and started aggressively shouting things like "don't tell me how to raise my kids you b-word a-word m-f word!" I seriously thought a fight was going to break out and no one was doing anything, so I did - all 5ft 108lbs of me. I told them both to calm down and reminded them it's just a movie, but the father ignored me and and continue verbally abusing the guy in the most aggressive way I've ever seen in person so I finally said "Seriously? Do we need to call the police or something?" That finally shut him up and he left. Setting a great example for you kid, there. Anyway, point being that everyone else just sat there like even though they didn't really like his behavior, they were going to accept it. Nope, not me. Toxic masculinity is not acceptable in my book at all and I wish more people wouldn't tolerate it either.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
22,099 posts, read 14,519,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifty Seven View Post
People already have anger. Lots of it. We don't need more of it. Apparently we're going to get it, but we'll wish we didn't.
The thing is, we have to ask ourselves why something makes us angry. Mature people learn to deal with anger.
Sometimes anger goads us to action.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Middle America
36,815 posts, read 42,116,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifty Seven View Post
I've yet to see anyone make a convincing argument that what our society needs right now is more anger.
Anger, productively channelled, can be, and has been the impetus for important social change.

People who are not angered by injustice rarely effectively fight against it.
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