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Old 07-08-2019, 02:13 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
4,953 posts, read 2,284,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzpapalotl View Post
  • Understanding of criminal charges;
  • Understanding of the implications of being a defendant;
  • Understanding of the adversarial nature of the proceedings;
  • Understanding of the role of defense counsel, prosecutor, judge, and jury;
  • Ability to work with attorney and relate pertinent information; and
  • Ability to make important decisions that arise in the course of adjudication: how to plead, considering plea agreements, strategy of defense.

If no impairment is found in respect of these competencies, a defendant can be considered as CST, regardless of any present mental disorders.
Okay, so in my area, compentency hearings are typically going to involve defendants accused of extremely serious crimes (homicide, multiple attempted homicides at once), who have exhibited behaviors associated with psychosis, both prior to the crime & during the arrest.

Example: Robert Dear; the Planned Parenthood shooter, who had shown escalating delusions regarding religion & abortion & had self-isolated in a camper in an extremely remote area in Colorado prior to killing 3 & injuring 9 during his shooting rampage. Facing the death penalty:

Quote:
Appearing in court on December 9 to be formally charged with 179 felony counts, including first-degree murder, Dear interrupted proceedings more than a dozen times, yelling: "I am guilty, there's no trial. I'm a warrior for the babies," later adding "Protect the babies!" Dear also stated "Kill the babies, that's what Planned Parenthood does" and accused his public defenders of conspiring with Planned Parenthood against him...

In May 2016, Judge Martinez ruled that Dear was incompetent to stand trial, citing experts' finding that Dear suffers from "delusional disorder, persecutory type." Martinez ordered Dear to be indefinitely confined to a Colorado state mental hospital. In February 2018, following further evaluations by state psychiatrists, the judge ruled that Dear remains incompetent to stand trial, meaning that the prosecution remains on hold indefinitely.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colo...thood_shooting

To me, at least, despite the tragedy that victims families will not have closure through the courts & despite that Mr. Dear wants to die; this was a prudent decision. Clearly, Mr. Dear is delusional. But did he not ‘understand’ consequences? Wasn’t he intentionally antagonizing his legal defense precisely because they weren’t delivering the results he wanted?

And now, we consider Depressive Disorder. And we see a healthy, young person living in a first world country who despite being able to viably articulate why; is so depressed that they want to die. But this is not clearly delusional?

If desiring the death of both others & yourself under delusion is resulting in others denying you death; how does the desiring death of just yourself, under delusion, result in others granting your death? That’s delusional. Keep all that delusion to yourself, man; I don’t want any part of it.

Last edited by coschristi; 07-08-2019 at 02:44 PM..
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:30 PM
 
413 posts, read 81,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Okay, so in my area, compentency hearings are typically going to involve defendants accused of extremely serious crimes (homicide, multiple attempted homicides at once), who have exhibited behaviors associated with psychosis, both prior to the crime & during the arrest.

Example: Robert Dear; the Planned Parenthood shooter, who had shown escalating delusions regarding religion & abortion & had self-isolated in a camper in an extremely remote area in Colorado prior to killing 3 & injuring 9 during his shooting rampage. Facing the death penalty:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colo...thood_shooting

To me, at least, despite the tragedy that victims families will not have closure through the courts & despite that Mr. Dear wants to die; this was a prudent decision. Clearly, Mr. Dear is delusional. But did he not ‘understand’ consequences? Wasn’t he intentionally antagonizing his legal defense precisely because they weren’t delivering the results he wanted?

And now, we consider Depressive Disorder. And we see a healthy, young person living in a first world country who despite being able to viably articulate why; is so depressed that they want to die. But this is not clearly delusional?
You've actually answered your own question. The system worked in that the defendant in your example was found impaired in respect of one of the required competencies. If a person diagnosed with a depressive disorder is similarly found impaired then they would not qualify for assisted suicide.

The important thing to remember is that not every decision you find objectionable is a sign of delusion.
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Old 07-08-2019, 02:50 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
4,953 posts, read 2,284,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzpapalotl View Post
You've actually answered your own question. The system worked in that the defendant in your example was found impaired in respect of one of the required competencies. If a person diagnosed with a depressive disorder is similarly found impaired then they would not qualify for assisted suicide.

The important thing to remember is that not every decision you find objectionable is a sign of delusion.
Situational depression is not delusional. Clinical depression may actually be delusional. Do you find granting death to either one to be more objectionable than the other? Both objectionable? Neither?
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:01 PM
 
413 posts, read 81,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Situational depression is not delusional. Clinical depression may actually be delusional. Do you find granting death to either one to be more objectionable than the other? Both objectionable? Neither?
Fortunately, it's not up to me or Joe Public to determine who qualifies and who doesn't. This is why professionals who conduct forensic assessments in the cases of assisted suicide applications have such stringent criteria.

Let me ask you a question, before you decided which side of the fence you're on, have you actually tried to find what the assessment criteria is for assisted suicide consideration in the cases of depressive illness? Because unless you know, how could you possibly judge the decision making that goes on behind the scenes?
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,756 posts, read 4,173,173 times
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Absolutely. Mental illness/depression is hellish for some people who have suffered for years and years. There would have to be proven records in place that the depression has been ongoing for X number of years with no reprieve.

I also think assisted suicide should be available to those who are suffering from incurable illnesses as long as they are of sound mind to sign the forms.

We do this for our beloved pets, so why not allow people who are intelligent enough to make their own decisions on ending their own lives?
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Tucson Arizona
3,900 posts, read 1,655,140 times
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I believe we have a right to decide when enough is enough. Assisted suicide is a kindness.
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Old 07-09-2019, 01:51 PM
 
6,584 posts, read 2,376,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Absolutely not. Belgium may as well just hand over their ‘will to live’ card. Why stop there? Put the whole territory up for auction. Nah, that takes planning. More like ‘Curb & Carry’.

Maybe if citizens get depressed enough, militant extremists can save their arms to use on us.



You are kind of an example of exactly why this should never happen. You are ASD, correct? Me too. I understand how a lifetime spent always on the outside looking in, can impact a person. Constantly misunderstanding & being misunderstood. Anxiety to the point of fatigue.

But some of us, like my son, are willing to fight for their place in society. He’s spent the majority of his life being unable to say ‘I’m hurting. Thirsty. Hot. Tired ...” but he has a sense of purpose. He is proud of his YouTube & Deviant Art accounts & of his little group of followers. He loves swimming & drawing & the child who couldn’t talk, can write silly scripts for his planned animated show: “Luke’s Adventures’. He draws himself, (the starring role, of course) as a teenage kid wearing shorts & a t-shirt, with crazy brown hair & a smile on his face.

He has struggles. He’s a teenager. He gets depressed. When I die, he will require 24/hr a day care that will require taxpayer dollars. If I am not here; who will save him from being ‘assisted’, if we were to have this option? Or the other millions of disabled? What is the potential for this to be abused?

That's what I was wondering about. How long before "I choose assisted suicide" becomes "He would've wanted it this way." ?
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Old Today, 10:34 AM
 
603 posts, read 356,406 times
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Although I favor assisted suicide for the mentally ill who request it, what I find about the Belgium law to be objectionable is that it also allows assisted suicide for children. This is too extreme as children are not mature enough to make such a decision. So let the law be revised to limit the assisted suicide to those who are at least 21 years of age.
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Old Today, 04:38 PM
 
Location: on the wind
7,145 posts, read 2,931,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monastic555 View Post
Although I favor assisted suicide for the mentally ill who request it, what I find about the Belgium law to be objectionable is that it also allows assisted suicide for children. This is too extreme as children are not mature enough to make such a decision. So let the law be revised to limit the assisted suicide to those who are at least 21 years of age.
But the problem here still ends up being that any established chronological age limit may not be appropriate for all. Just as in drinking, driving, voting, etc. Yes, that might reduce the frequency of errors, but it won't eliminate it. Someone else may still need to weigh in on their fitness to make the decision; like their physician. "Maturity" is relative. A young person who is struggling mentally might not be any more fit to choose at age 21 than they were at 12. I can bring to mind several friends' teen aged children who could probably make such a decision and a couple of at least 21 who probably could not. Let's hope they never need to.

Maybe, by being less specified in terms of age it keeps the decision right where it probably needs to be; between the patient and their doctor, and not the courts.

Last edited by Parnassia; Today at 04:53 PM..
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