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Old 08-05-2023, 06:30 PM
 
1,212 posts, read 539,364 times
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I do feel men are more fearful of being thought of as homosexual. I believe all people are "bi" at some level - so maybe some men are freaked out if they have ever felt any attraction for another man? Just a guess.
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Old 08-06-2023, 10:49 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by considerforamoment View Post
I do feel men are more fearful of being thought of as homosexual. I believe all people are "bi" at some level
Why, then, would the vast majority (of men and women) be heterosexual; logically speaking, your statement (nonsensically) implies women are fearful as well. To the contrary, there is certainly evidence that sexual orientation has a biological foundation and genetic component, particularly relative to epigenetics.

That said, you’re (biasly) speaking to the current popular consciousness i.e. the notion ‘gender and/or sexuality is fluid’, particularly within the context of a psychology forum.
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Old 08-08-2023, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azzamacca84 View Post
You're conflating gender disphoria trans women with autogynaphiliacs (transvestite/ cross dressers)

To argue that homosexuality has very little to do with transgenderism is quite ignorant.

These days the term 'transgender' is very loaded but for the sake of keeping things less complicated, I'll reduce the two main groups of 'trans women' to the gender disphoria group and the autogynaphiliac group.

Transgender women who have experienced an extreme disconnect between their biological sex and the gender typical characteristics of the opposite sex, from their very earliest memories are generally thought of as being "born in the wrong body" as the wrong sex. These symptoms are referred to as s condition called gender disphoria. It's also something many gay men experience as young boys but perhaps on lessser spectrum which is why the vast majority grow out of their disphoria and go onto live as a cisgender homosexual. This condition isn't exclusive to males, although the prevalence in young girls experiencing this level of disphoria is significantly less.

Some of those children with gender disphoria dont grow out of it and as the body is developing into puberty, that disconnect between sex and gender identity becomes greater and that can often result in the beginning stages of transitioning. Others who have endured symptoms of gender disphoria throughout puberty might decide to transition after high school but very rarely do these individuals transition past early 20 as the disphoria is incredibly debilitating to live with which is sadly why many of them take their own lives.

There is a theory that these disphoria transgender individuals are born with the same biological component that can determine homosexuality. There is evidence to support this, with certain neurological patterns consistent with biological female are present in trans female. Those same patterns exist with gay men but to a lessee degree which suggests that those trans women who experience disphoria from early development are perhaps on the more extreme spectrum that can determine homosexuality. Obviously this neurological aspect is just one part of the puzzle that will help determine the higher chances of transgenderism combined with cla myriad of environmental factors etc.

The second group, as you referred to as transvestites or as I refer to them as autogynaphiliacs are quite the contrary. In fact so little did these two groups have in common with each other before the 2010's you would rarely even refer to them in the same sentence. Cross dressing have typically been heterosexual men who ha ve developed a kink. Autogynaphiliacs takes this concept one further and the idealisation of them being the object of their desire can awaken a newly discovered lateldisphoria but not all autogynaphiliacs have disphoria in fact most of then won't.

This gender identity has more to do with sexual arousal as the identity itself was developed over time a longer period but always born put of a paraphilia to imagine oneself as the sexual object of desire. Typically they 'transition ' much later in life, often living very ordinary lives as heterosexual men with no prior signs or symptoms of disphoria exhibited

As stated, typically autogynaphiliacs don't experience disphoria so the need to alleviate symptoms through hormones and surgery isn't as significant. Some of these individuals will decide to transition with medically and they involve anything from estrogen hormonal therapy to plastic surgery. This is the conundrum many autogynaphiliac trans women will be faced with. As they are already fully developed biological male adults, the need to reverse those masculine characteristics and feminise themselves to better reflect the object of their desires is strong so that will involve hormone therapy.

As they continue their cycles taking estrogen their physical appearance is becoming increasingly more feminised while simultaneously having a reverse effect on their libido. Men typically have a much higher sex drive than women, (which is one of the major factors why we don't see nearly as many paraphilias in women). That sex drive that drove them into discovering their latent gender identity is now starting to dissipate at the same rate their physical characteristics are becoming more notably feminised, inching closer to the object of their desire.

Whst happens when you're an autogynaphiliac who decides to transition and take hormones helping you look more feminised, and more aligned to the object of their desire yet simultaneously the very desire that was the impetus for the transition is decreasing at the same rate. The choice object or desire. They realise they can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you claim when most trans woman reach their goal and realise they don't want a man! I'm assuming you're referring to the disphoria trans? I don't where you're getting that data but it's not accurate, not even close.

Maybe what you were confused about was the other conundrum that exists for the disphoria group. This is specifically referring to those who have had bottom surgery and can be generally split into one of two groups. In the first group, this decision is made because the individual wants to blend in as much as possible and be recognised not as trans woman but an actual woman. The second group tends to be more apprehensive about the surgery but are usually doing it as a deal breaker because their heterosexual identifying male partners will only continue a relationship and introduce to his family as a cis woman.

Many trans women regret this, some don't but the vast majority of men who are attracted to trans women, require the d! Otherwise they'd just be with a cis woman. There's a common misunderstanding that men who are attracted to trans women are gay. Most certainly not! They aren't exactly heterosexual either which is why it's so frustrating the psychology/ sexolgy research community haven't given this fairly common orientation it's own distinct name.
L
There is SOOOO much to unpack in this post and if I did, not only would I double the size of this wall of text, but I'd be all over the place and not really on the topic.

So for now, I want to address just a couple of things.

1. I wish you had included some citations, and at the end you complain that the psychology and sexology community is not correctly seeing and evaluating all of this, so I would love to hear where your info is coming from. I ask as a member of the NCSF and someone who is involved in the kink community and has attended many classes, and just last weekend a conference that is more than half educational in nature and purpose...and while kink and LGBTQ+ are not the same thing by any means, there's very significant overlap. I am intrigued by the distinction of autogynephilia because I have observed some men talking about transitioning for reasons that seem somewhat...curious or questionable to me. I would not say it's mostly a kink thing if it's not a gender dysphoria thing... It's more that there are men now who are severely disaffected with what they perceive to be their lot in life. As though, if not permitted to hold ALL of the power in society, they must flop down in a corner, dejected at having NONE. One poster on the forums in particular has been on and on for years about how being a woman is "living life on God mode with all the cheat codes." There is a perception among some disaffected males (probably just in Western cultures, maybe focused in North America?) that everything is better for women and if only they were women, they'd have everything they wish for. Interestingly, I have met a number of trans women who have fully transitioned and then complain that when men desire them sexually, they feel objectified and fetishized and I'm kinda (being honest about my feels as a cis woman here) like "hey congrats, you're officially a woman, that is indeed how it's like." In other words, some of them arrive at the destination only to find that the scenery ain't nothing like the postcard.

2. You say that paraphilias are less common in women. I need data for that claim and not old data but modern data, recently collected. Seriously. Because in communities of kink and non-monogamy, and so on...there are tons of women. And when couples venture into it, it's often the woman leading the way. I believe that when women perceive a lack of social stigma restricting our behavior, we are more open minded to new sexual experiences. I also believe that men (whether biologically, culturally, explainable with evo-psych, whatever) are much more attached to rigid hierarchical and authority based power structures. So if growing up, persons of authority told them that homosexuality, or kink, or whatever, was heinous and disgusting, they are more likely to internalize that and attempt to enforce it on others. I think that a lot of people have "kinks" in terms of silent fantasies they never tell anybody about (as evidenced by studies on what kind of porn is searched for, as well as many conversations I have had with women also)...but when it comes to actual behavior, even the behavior of admitting to an interest outside of the mainstream, you MUST take into account the forces of social pressures that are meaningful to people. I think that women are more motivated by a general need to belong and be approved of and not shunned by the group around them, but men are more competitive and driven to participate in a pecking order where it's clear to them which men are ranked higher and lower than they are. This will alter perception of risk in terms of exposing any "non-mainstream" sexual interest...if a woman harbors such, she might feel safe exploring it if she finds others who are accepting. But men often still have to overcome internalized shame from what authority figures enforced upon them growing up. Actually, I wonder if that could be connected to the documented history of power exchange in the gay male leather community, but that conversation is likely a bridge too far here.
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Old 08-08-2023, 01:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Freddie Mercury was one of my favorite musical artists.

But homosexuality is absolutely abnormal and bizarre.

There is no way around that as far as I'm concerned.

However, I don't believe in discriminating against anybody in terms of school or work because of that.
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Old 08-08-2023, 01:50 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Freddie Mercury was one of my favorite musical artists.

But homosexuality is absolutely abnormal and bizarre.
It’s ‘abnormal and bizarre’ you would care about it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
However, I don't believe in discriminating against anybody in terms of school or work because of that.
That you think it ‘bizarre’ is indicative of (at least your subconscious) bias. As a heterosexual man, I think there’s a huge distinction between being repulsed by the thought of it relative to one’s self vs. being (narcissistically) repulsed by what others do when it doesn’t affect you.
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Old 08-08-2023, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle
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What folks do behind closed doors is their business. As long as nobody is injured and no children are involved, it’s a-ok with me.

What is repulsive tho is the LGBQT community forcing their viewpoints down people’s throats….worse yet, the throats of children.
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Old 08-09-2023, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
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Being gay is still illegal in many countries.

So I would say, yes, men are clearly repulsed by gay men. As well as almost every religion is repulsed by it.

What people do in their bedroom is their business, the problem is when I'm on dating apps and gay men or trans women set their profiles as "women" which means I have to come across either profile. I have no idea why gay men and trans women set their dating profile to "women," since theoretically straight men would not be interested in either.
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Old 08-09-2023, 08:03 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Being gay is still illegal in many countries.
The issue of legality (in other countries) is quite different than one’s personal feelings on the matter, particularly relative to a Psychology Forum in the US. That some heterosexual men can’t understand it does not mean we don’t accept it in others, and we have no reason to even think about it (or care).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
So I would say, yes, men are clearly repulsed by gay men.
It’s different to be repulsed by the thought of sex with a man (or an obese woman, for that matter) than being repulsed by a gay man, lesbian or obese woman. You’re conflating the thought/act with the person and speaking to it as if it were one and the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
As well as almost every religion is repulsed by it.
I don’t think that’s been the case for twenty+ years; an associate of mine is gay, and he married several years ago in a church, from what I remember. That said, I’m certainly not repulsed by him i.e. he’s a solid friend; hence, being repulsed by the thought of sex with a man (or an obese/unattractive woman) for myself is entirely different. It’s not a personal indictment against anyone, as you appear to interpret/state such, per the thread.
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Old 08-09-2023, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,398 posts, read 14,683,356 times
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The general forums here are not actually meant, I don't think, to be forums "in the US" (all and only about the US.) While most posters here are Americans, I think, certainly many aren't.

That said, when it comes to specifically matters in "the West" or American issues... We have a lot of tension, I believe, with more and less progressive mindsets. I think that the majority is progressive enough that if representations of LGBTQ+ people appear publicly or in media, we can probably accept that. What I think is causing a lot of discomfort is that GRAPHIC depictions of sexuality have, during my own lifetime, become more normalized and prevalent. But it's a big mistake in my opinion, to conflate that with the LGBTQ+ community and their priorities. Because graphic depictions of het sexuality have skyrocketed in mainstream media also. As well as profanity and other things that we used to keep to a relative minimum in the middle of the last century.

This is where I actually do feel some sympathy for some people who end up leaning conservative, because I remember very clearly my own mentality when raising kids. People want to at least be capable of raising small children in an environment of wholesomeness. It wasn't really a problem for me if my kids saw two men holding hands on the sidewalk, I was "progressive" enough that them knowing that different kinds of people can form love bonds and families and all...that's fine. But there really is a line where as a parent, I wouldn't have felt comfortable when things get too intensely sexual. A behavioral one that applies to everybody, definitely straight people too. For what it's worth I didn't really want them seeing intense and graphic and gory violence, either. There's just certain content I wanted to shield them from until they had a chance to grow up somewhat, and I don't think it's an outrageous thing to ask or want.

But of course the ubiquity of the internet and the difficulty in filtering content nowadays, to say nothing of what anybody might get up to out in the world...is making that so much harder. I feel for parents in the present and kinda get why people might get spooked about some stuff. It feels like society is hostile to children these days, though I'm not sure if it's actually any worse than it was when I was growing up (crime stats indicate it isn't, but media will make you think it is.)

But I really do object to acting as though gay people are the ones, the only ones, deserving of that whole "I don't wanna see it, ew yuck too sexual" judgment. Just because some man only wants to see straight porn and not gay porn does not mean that ANYONE ought to be blasting porn of any kind out at the unsuspecting eyes of anybody who didn't make an effort to see it and didn't consent to. I just don't think it has to be about the gays at all. I think that everybody just needs to freakin' behave.

But if you look at a married straight couple, say perhaps people you don't find personally attractive, and you don't instantly have a porn reel in your mind of what their sex looks like...and yet seeing a gay couple makes your mind automatically go there when they aren't even doing anything sexual at all... That probably says more about you than it does them.
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Old 08-09-2023, 10:06 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,689 posts, read 3,879,665 times
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
But I really do object to acting as though gay people are the ones, the only ones, deserving of that whole "I don't wanna see it, ew yuck too sexual" judgment.
Why do you object/disapprove of what other folks feel or believe? That, in and of itself, is a ‘judgment’.

That said, no one should have to see it, in the same way they don’t see my girlfriend and I having sex either, as what two consenting persons do behind closed doors is their business. I’m several years older than she is, and there are folks who judge that in this forum as well; in other words, everyone is judged at some point i.e. gay persons are most certainly not the only ones, as you (biasly) indicate.

Hence, relative to psychological health and the forum, it’s about acceptance of one’s self (as well as others).
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