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Old 10-31-2023, 09:05 AM
 
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A great set of comments. A couple of examples I experienced that fit so well with what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
2) people are incompetent (perhaps even unteachable) but have been promoted to some level that requires them to interact on said project and they do not want to expose themselves so they gloss over the subject that would show their incompetence. Note, these people also tend to never communicate in writing or when they do, provide an "out" for themselves.

5) Got promoted to positions above their aptitude

Different environment: Retail Tech product training. This company's LOB did it the right way. We were encouraged to "be in the field/interact w end users". I had great experience at this company because they encouraged ALL employees to learn - we could go to the corporate "university" to get knowledgeable on any tech they were involved in if you worked near corp campus. When in office, as someone who spent time in field with consumers, resellers and end users, we were asked by IT to provide input on the website development and functionality. They had an extensive early customer acceptance testing (ECAT) of products.
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I spent a good deal of my career in an organization that valued learning for the employees. They'd pay for training (every year we could submit a list of training we wanted); they'd pay for college courses, even advanced degrees. But for some reason management themselves never seemed to attend any training or outside education. So many in management fit your number 2 and 5 comments. If I were to say some of the things they said openly in meetings, someone could recognize where I worked due the sheer idiocy of the statements. Statements on the level of the Congressman who asked if Guam would tip over from too many people on it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
Diff environment large financial org. Some IT initiative to get everyone on same system required my team to be asked about functionality of what was currently being done to be able to adapt it to the "new" system. I was never so PO'd when a week after switched to new system (of which we were not notified of transition date), non of the functionality we conveyed to them as being needed was available to us. One of my coworkers remarked, "I've never heard you so angry on the phone!".
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Back in the 80s I worked on a very large IT control system project (billion dollars back when a billion meant something). First thing they did was tell the developers NOT to talk to the end users because they didn't want to limit the developer's creativity with user needs. After several years they reached the intended completion date with over 10,000 documented defects and completely unable to execute the intended usage. My job was operational testing and I reported less than 20% functionality because almost 80% hadn't even been delivered yet so I couldn't test it. They tried to order me to falsify the test report to 98% functionality because (since it hadn't been delivered, we didn't know it didn't work).

When they couldn't get any of the testers to agree, they "management decided" to declare success, discard all 10,000 open defects, initiate a new "upgrade" project, and restart defect reporting in a new form.

Took several years and another $Billion to get basic functionality and by the time it was finally replaced, it never reached full design capability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
The simplest explanation I can give is thoroughness. Some people in any environment are not thorough, they don't want to research or spend time learning how a system / process works. The problem I see most is they've absolved thinking/research strictly to the things they are comfortable with (or only asking the people they know and are agreeable with - one of the big problems with public survey techniques, but I digress) like internet and fail to round out the sourcing of other learning. They get a false expectation they can find anything they need typing at a keyboard. Most every work environment does not work that way.

To build upon Mightyqueen and tnff's comments, if you are around long enough in an organization you realize how it is much like high school. Group projects where not everyone does their job nor contributes, petty political positioning, popularity being weighed more than ability to get job done, et al.

A lot of companies overlook the valuable employees that are cross disciplinary competent. They can put them in various functions as needed. A baseball sports analogy to illustrate - it is like having multiple competent utility players versus, say, only one position players.
Agree with all the points you made. Thoroughness is one of the issues I observed with many new hires. Sometimes I wonder how much of that comes from PowerPoint style communication. I'm stunned at the number of complex issues that management decides based on a couple of bullet points and a cartoon in a briefing. This was even included in some of the post Columbia accident reports on the causes -- PowerPoint basically hiding key information in bullets.

I think most of us have lived those group projects where you have to carry the dead weight or get a failing grade.
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Old 10-31-2023, 04:56 PM
 
Location: on the wind
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[quote=tnff;66018221] If I were to say some of the things they said openly in meetings, someone could recognize where I worked due the sheer idiocy of the statements. Statements on the level of the Congressman who asked if Guam would tip over from too many people on it.


Don't know who is worse...the Congressman or the idiots who let themselves be bamboozled by gladhanding and empty campaign promises into electing him to "represent" them! Power to the People? That cuts both ways. A favorite quote from one of our higher caliber politicians:

"'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt!"
Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by Parnassia; 10-31-2023 at 05:47 PM..
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Old 11-01-2023, 08:47 AM
 
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[quote=Parnassia;66020095]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
If I were to say some of the things they said openly in meetings, someone could recognize where I worked due the sheer idiocy of the statements. Statements on the level of the Congressman who asked if Guam would tip over from too many people on it.


Don't know who is worse...the Congressman or the idiots who let themselves be bamboozled by gladhanding and empty campaign promises into electing him to "represent" them! Power to the People? That cuts both ways. A favorite quote from one of our higher caliber politicians:

"'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt!"
Abraham Lincoln
It's hard to believe some of the things I've been asked by Congress critters and other high level VIPs when giving tours. Some are very intelligent and ask intelligent questions. Others, I wondered how they graduated sixth grade, and, as you said, who voted for them?
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Old 11-01-2023, 10:36 AM
 
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There are a LOT of different issues here, but what hasn't been said is sometimes the person doing the task has a reason for doing it the way they are doing it, and someone coming along saying "There's a better way to do that", actually just has the way they prefer to do it, not that it's better.

OR, they say "let me show you how to do this" and it's something the person will never use again, and it's difficult to learn, and frankly, it's not worth the time to earn a task they won't need to know how to do.
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Old 11-08-2023, 10:48 AM
 
Location: In your head
1,014 posts, read 505,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Ok, this question isn't about people who hold strong opinions and can't be swayed by fact. Rather this is about very simple situations where simple learning an understanding should be obvious but some people just keep doing the same thing. Kind of like pounding on a wall rather than walking through the door.

Prime example that brought this up: An item won't fit in the space available. Becomes pretty obvious really quick that it's too big (long, wide, tall, whatever) to fit. Yet someone keep shoving, pushing, twisting, trying to make it fit. Even telling them to stop for a minute and think about it just get's more shoving.

Why does it bother me? Because I'm one of the people who has to clean up the mess and fix things after these folks create a mess or wind up breaking something along the way.
That would be a frustrating experience. Especially the part where you need to clean it up afterwards.

I think in a situation like the one you describe, I would try to frame a question in as non-confrontational or non-accusatory manner as I could so that I could get the job done properly.

"Hey, so-and-so, do you mind if I try something real quick?"

In my experience, people who are struggling or frustrated with a task will ungrudgingly turn the task over to someone who volunteers their services. You get the task done quickly and properly, they are grateful for the help, and no one's feelings get hurt along the way.
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