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Old 09-17-2009, 10:32 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,034,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardius View Post
Are you familiar with Vasopressin or Oxytocin? Vasopressin is a hormone involved with pair bonding in males, and Oxytocin is a hormone involved in pair bonding with females. Oxytocin is also released during orgasm, during breastfeeding, childbirth and when being touched.

Vasopressin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oxytocin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Species like prairie voles which have high levels of vasopressin tend to be monogamous. Species with low levels of vasopressin aren't.

As a species we have higher levels of vasopressin than average, but not that much higher. Our nearest relatives are bonobos and chimps, neither of which are particularly monogamous.

When oxytocin is blocked in rats, the mother's stop nursing baby rats and stop recognizing their offspring as there own.

Oxytocin is why cats and dogs like being petted. The reason women like to cuddle and get so much more out of being held, is that they just have much higher levels of oxytocin than males.

But like height, different people have different base levels of these hormones. Men who are married for 50 years plus tend to have much higher levels of vasopressin than the population at large. There is dispute whether the successful marriages causes higher levels of vasopressin in males or whether the men with higher base levels of vasopressin just make more successful husbands.

Oxytocin seems to work the same way in females and again there is a dispute as to whether its the successful marriages that seem to raise the levels of oxytocin in those females or whether the higher base levels of oxytocin makes these women more committed to making marriage work.

But in any case, there is a fairly substantial part of the male population with low levels of vasopressin and a fairly substantial part of the female population with low levels of ocytocin.

Both of these populations are going to have problems making marriage work. The thing is that the dating pool isn't a representive population. The people with high levels of these hormones are going to tend to stay in relationships and the people who have low levels of these hormones are going to re-enter the dating pool.

So when someone says that marriage isn't normal. They probably are right. For them, it probably isn't.
Hi edwardius,

So what you are really saying is there is no such thing a crowning baldness. Its from when men fall asleep and his old lady is plucking out his hair to test for hormone levels.
Bad jokes aside, good post. It is evident to me that after a certain age there is much more dissatisfaction out there because the remaining dating pool has a higher concentration of people not geared towards monogamy. I was unfortunately aware that I was probably in an increasing minority of the monogamous pool as I reached my 30s. I am attracted to other women, but I just cannot double cross who ever I am with. My sense of loyalty is just too strong.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Maryland Eastern Shore
969 posts, read 2,460,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
It is.

I know women will blow their trumpet and have a cow, but I do ask what is in it for me? If I am going to put myself in that commitment and put the effort out then what benefits do I get in return for coupling with you?

..................If there is no balance and it's all about the woman leeching off me and driving me up the wall, then why bother?
I won't have a cow - but this is BULL(poop)

What is "in it for you"? How about the pleasure of another person's company - the comfort of intimacy - thinking of "home" as more than a house - building memories - sharing experiences......and so on??

Having made the mistake of marrying someone who was never married till they were over 40 - I now know that some people weren't meant to share their life - they are "happy" in their solitude.

Leave them to it.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:43 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,034,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVlover View Post
'...'Our nearest relatives are bonobos and chimps...'

REPLY: Thank you for your writeup on how biology and chemicals affect a person and their chance of having a good working marriage. There may be an element of truth to some of the things you eluded to. However, one thing I am certain of, is that Human Beings did not come from lower forms of animals ultimately arising from slimey algae thereby having no objective purpose, meaning, or intrinsic worth or dignity . Eventually, as one famous agnostic Evolutionary Scientist said , :' Macro Evolution will become known as the biggest fraud to ever perpetuate society' . Even before MacroEvolution can be viable, it takes Abiogenesis to be a reality ..but famous atheist and world reknown Biologist and Co Founder of the DNA Structure, Dr. Francis Crick, agreed that the probability of atheistic first life on earth was an incomprehensible 10x40,000 th power . I just dont have that much Faith, and I dont think anyone genuinely does. Regards.

Hi RVlover,

I don't have much use for either Creationism or Evolution as a complete explanation. No one has a comprehensive explanation for life. I knew Darwin was wrong 20 years ago. Though that is not to say other forms of evolution are the property of Darwin. Natural selection is certainly a fact in my mind. I certainly do not want to debate it here. However I always see value in identifying base drives. We have them. I also see that we have our unique humanity of intellect culture and faith. We are a union of those forces. I have a hormone level and my sense of loyalty.
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Old 09-17-2009, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,082 posts, read 2,033,827 times
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I imagine there are many reasons for a man (or woman) never having married by age 40. I got married for the first time at age 42, and have been happily married for over seven years. Why did I wait for so long? During my 20s and most of my 30s, I focused on my pay-the-bills job during the day, and I spent the bulk of my evenings and weekends pursuing my goal of becoming a professional writer or songwriter. I didn't want the responsibilities of marriage and family. I dated a little, but mostly I was happy being alone or spending time with my few close friends.

By my late 30s, for reasons I've never fully understood, I started to feel lonely and tired of being unattached. At first, all I wanted was a steady, serious girlfriend. Later, I decided I wanted to get married. My relationship skills weren't the greatest, to put it mildly. After a lot of introspection and reading psychology and self-help books, I gradually figured out why I'd remained single for so long. I was raised by a mother who wanted to shield me from all pain in life, both physical and emotional, and I unconsciously viewed emotional intimacy as "dangerous." There was a point during my early 30s when my parents weren't getting along, my sister had dumped yet another serious boyfriend, one of my best friends had just gotten divorced, and my other good friends were either divorced or never-married. I couldn't point to a single happy, stable long-term relationship, let alone marriage, so I came to the conclusion that marriage was an institution designed to create stability for raising children. Since I didn't want kids, it made no sense for me.

Fortunately, I got past all that. My parents rekindled their relationship, and my sister and one of my-long-time-bachelor friends finally found spouses. I decided that, if I hadn't become a novelist of songwriter by then, it wasn't going to happen. I entered the dating scene in earnest. It was tough. I met a lot of emotionally flaky women. The stable ones who were looking for a marriage partner (mostly divorced or widowed women) were understandably suspicious that I truly wanted to get married after having been single for so long, and my aforementioned lack of relationship skills caused me to get dumped repeatedly. But I finally met someone who was able to see below my rough exterior and take a chance on me. She had wounds of her own, and I was willing to take a chance on her. She also had two kids, and I decided to take a scary leap of faith and take on the role of becoming a stepfather. It all worked out, and I'm more than glad we all took chances on one another.

As far as the OP goes, I don't think you can (or should even try to) convince a never-married someone to take a chance on marriage. That's a conclusion people need to reach for themselves, and they need to reach it for the right reasons (i.e., not out of panic that all of their friends are married, or because their parents are nagging them).
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:36 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 2,641,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi RVlover,

I don't have much use for either Creationism or Evolution as a complete explanation. No one has a comprehensive explanation for life. I knew Darwin was wrong 20 years ago. Though that is not to say other forms of evolution are the property of Darwin. Natural selection is certainly a fact in my mind. I certainly do not want to debate it here. However I always see value in identifying base drives. We have them. I also see that we have our unique humanity of intellect culture and faith. We are a union of those forces. I have a hormone level and my sense of loyalty.
Howdy. I think i knew Darwinnian Evolution was wrong back when i was in 4 th grade and the text book showed the infamous Soup Pond of gurgling broth and out popped a basic life form ! As i got a bit older and took a fascination with the human anatomy discovering the 60 some major anatomical systems along with hundreds other sub-systems all working collaboratively so I could live...it was pretty compelling evidence that someone had put together the blueprint and made it occur. Now im an adult and have a working knowledge on such things as DNA and the 250 razor precise Physics Constants of our Cosmos that scientists declare are ALL required for us to be on earth...and...for each one of THEM to be continually sustained, it is obvious to me that we have a loving, almighty, eternal, infinite , personal Creator who went far beyond the call of duty to provide for our eventual coming .

What I have found is, the modern scientific evidences we have support and compliment The Bible . Many are not aware that the Old Testament declared and documented alot of our modern science processes we have today, some 3-5,000 years ago . When one takes the time to thoroughly investigate the credibility for the Bible and the Christian Faith, it is so compelling that some of the most scholarly and intelligent People have become convinced it is God inspired and represents the God of all Creation. If you ever get to the point of desiring to really investigate it, the best Online Source i have found is without a doubt : www.impactapologetics.com . Take care.
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AONE View Post
Statistically a man over 35 , never married has a 50% chance he is gay. the odds increase with age. Perhaps the crush is for the unattainable?
Not to be the one to point out the obvious but maybe he is great for dinner parties, decorating, and chick flicks :-)
Dinner parties - yes - but I'm not much good at decorating. I can stay awake through the chick flicks. Perhaps I'm partially gay?!
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:46 PM
 
951 posts, read 1,563,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsywoman
All I can say is that marriage to me is only if you want kids, otherwise bag it. It is not natural.,


Quote:
Originally Posted by RVlover View Post
Could you please explain why you believe Marriage isnt natural ? Thank you.
He said marriage without kids is not natural. While I don't agree with him, this is quite a difference.

Anyhow, he shares a widely held view and when people get married, there is often pressure from such people to procreate. One reason to stay single if your family is of this view. Either that or move!
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:06 PM
 
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I also don't want to overstate the science here. The scientists can measure the correlations between the hormone levels and the behavior. But the causality is still being worked out. But here is the current thinking.

If you look at height, some people have always been taller than other people. But 400 years in Europe, the overall population was about 6 inches shorter than they are today. So is height a function of genes or environment or both? The reason people are taller today than they were 400 years ago is that our diets are much better. So in that sense diet has a big impact on height. But even with ideal diets, most people still aren't going to be as big as Shaq, so there is a genetic component to the variation in heights as well.

A big part of what we experience as emotions occurs biochemically. Moreover vasopressin and ocytocin are not the only hormones involved, nor are they the sole actors involved. Hormone levels impact neurotransmitters in complex feedback mechanisms. Hormone levels impact behavior but behavior impacts hormone levels.

Let's say you are depressed because the death of a family member. If you are depressed, one of the things your doctor will advise is exercise. Why he is doing that is that when you do, no matter your gender, your testosterone levels will increase, that in turn will increase serotonin production making you less depressed. The testosterone will increase your libido. So your behavior impacts your feelings (libido and depression). But your doctor will also probably put you on antidepressants. Those too will impact your moods generally by either limiting the bodies ability to remove serotonin from the bloodstream (SSRIs). If your serotonin are rising, your body may assume that the testosterone related hormones are too high and as it slows the production of these chemicals, that in turn causes some of the sexual effects of antidepressants (generally reduced libido). So your biochemistry also impacts your moods as well. But if you look at what started the whole thing, it was the death of a family member which through your body chemistry off in the first place. So feelings are causing biochemical effects and biochemical agents are changing feelings. The causality works both ways.

Just about all anti-depressants are going to have sexual side effects because sex hormones are involved in regulating a lot of the neurotransmitters involved in depression. So while people think of depression as an emotion. Its also something that is happening biochemically. Hormones are highly involved in regulating those neurotransmitters. Part of the reason women's libido changes with the time of the month and both during and after pregnancy is changes in hormones. Post-partum depression is basically caused by the adjustment back to non pregnancy hormone levels.

To summarize our behaviors are greatly effected by our hormone levels. But our hormone levels are greatly impacted by our behaviors. Just as improving our diets from the middle ages to today, increased the average heights in the population, our behaviors are going to have some impacts in influencing our hormone levels. But different people have different genetic potentials. Even with perfect diets some people are never going to be as tall and athletic as Shaq and some people even with perfect behavior are never going to have really high levels of ocytocin or vasopressin.

Not everyone is well suited to play in the nba and a lot of people aren't well suited for long term monogamy.
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Moving
1,249 posts, read 2,565,507 times
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Default Chill A Little

Quote:
Originally Posted by blossom4792 View Post
I have a specific reason for asking this question (yes, mega-crush), but I'm wondering if anyone could explain the psychology of a super-professional man, over 40 (let's say mid-40s), never married, no children, very ultra serious and professional - successful, but not buying a super-mansion or fancy car. I guess one example is Patrick Fitzgerald who I take it got married last year. But I'm wondering how such a person structures his life; what does he do when he gets home? Does he watch TV or just read professional journals, or does he have some way to find casual dates? And does he suppress his sex drive, or do men, even the super serious academic types find an outlet and how? And is this an age trigger where they are looking to finally find someone? [I would also ask about females, but my goal here is somewhat specific; but obviously all discussion is welcome and appreciated]. I feel kind of paranoid about being more specific, just don't want to jinx anything, even if completely totally unrealistic.
IMHO you are way to amped up over this guy and he probably will lose interest with you soon if you continue to obsess over what you find odd when he finds it normal. I guess you never spent much time in Europe, as many men do not marry until their mid to late 40's and still live at home with mom!
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:03 PM
 
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Women have more baggage as they get older. However, they also tend to be more mature in their attitude and approach to life. You can't help where you've been or what you picked up along the way. You can, however, have a positive attitude about who you are and who you choose to be with. Sometimes we don't get this when we're young.
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