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Old 09-17-2012, 11:41 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,093,550 times
Reputation: 4527

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
We live in Norway, and we have the socialized health care system, pretty much the same as you in Canada. We pay 7.6 % of our gross income for universal health coverage. This is mandatory and deducted from your pay check. We pay appr. $ 13k per year for this. In addition there are deductables for everything. Nothing is for free.

And when we go overseas we are not covered for anything!

The medical system here is really sub-standard. A friend of mine that got cancer had to wait 6 months for treatment. He finally paid treatment himself out of his own pocket. There is long lines for all kinds of treatment, and try to guess what the rich do...the fly to the US fro treatment!

Just food for thoughts before you start supporting socialized health care...
Fact of the matter is that in Canada, we spend 1/3 less as a percentage of GDP and live longer. We pay less taxes than in the USA both corporate and personal.

I pay no premiums for healthcare, and there is no deductible. There also is no upper limit... I spent 3.5 months in hospital a few years ago, and I still am covered... with no threats to cut me off. I call my doctor who I chose (not some HMO), I get an appointment in as little as a day, worst wait 1 week, seen a specialist the next day on a referral.

I know that is not what many have heard about the 'horrors' of the Canadian system, but those are the facts.

Wait times? It depends. If you need a hip or knee replacement, the USA is faster.. .those are usually lifestyle issues because of obesity. So, I listen to threads like this and friends of mine in the USA and their restrictions and decutibles and limits and HMO directed doctors and quotas and say no thanks, I'll take my 'socialized healthcare' any day.

Our doctors do NOT work for the state, the have private clinics. They are paid by the healthcare system, but are responsible for their own overhead and staff, hours they work, and how many patients they want to see.

We spend 1/3 less, have lower taxes, and live longer. Which part of that is not right?
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Vik
392 posts, read 415,632 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Fact of the matter is that in Canada, we spend 1/3 less as a percentage of GDP and live longer. We pay less taxes than in the USA both corporate and personal.

I pay no premiums for healthcare, and there is no deductible. There also is no upper limit... I spent 3.5 months in hospital a few years ago, and I still am covered... with no threats to cut me off. I call my doctor who I chose (not some HMO), I get an appointment in as little as a day, worst wait 1 week, seen a specialist the next day on a referral.

I know that is not what many have heard about the 'horrors' of the Canadian system, but those are the facts.

Wait times? It depends. If you need a hip or knee replacement, the USA is faster.. .those are usually lifestyle issues because of obesity. So, I listen to threads like this and friends of mine in the USA and their restrictions and decutibles and limits and HMO directed doctors and quotas and say no thanks, I'll take my 'socialized healthcare' any day.

Our doctors do NOT work for the state, the have private clinics. They are paid by the healthcare system, but are responsible for their own overhead and staff, hours they work, and how many patients they want to see.

We spend 1/3 less, have lower taxes, and live longer. Which part of that is not right?
I couldn`t tell about Canada, maybe they have a better system than Norway.

But I do know one fact: Canada has appr. 34 million inhabitants, slightly less than the state of California. I would imagine that the US with 314 ++?? million might require a totally different system than Canada has, or Norway for that sake - that has less inhabitants than New Mexico.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:03 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,592,503 times
Reputation: 1130
Ok, first of all: Are you sure you are from Norway?

I occasionally see people in health care discussions who pretend to be from other countries in order to add credibility when they talk down said countries health care systems. And by "talk down" I mean they repeat fake talking points and urban legends.

I bring this up because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
Facts are that Norway with 45% average income tax,
There is no way you have ever held a paying job in Norway. Not a chance.

The average total tax for Norwegians is 25%. You want table 2.5 in that link, that shows average total tax for each quartile of the population, as well as the top 5 %, top 1% and top 0,1 % of people by income. Included taxes are shown in fig. 2.1. (income tax is just a bit over 1/3) That is from Statistics Norway, not Wikipedia.

Also, the Norwegian tax authorities have a tax calculator that lets you predict your taxes based on your income and deductions. Play around with it. You'll see that to hit 45 % with no kids or deductions, you need to make about 1,5 million dollars, ten million NKr. Pushing it up to a billion, we're still paying the max, 47,7 %

Now, looking at my own old pay slips, when I was making roughly 100 000 $, I was paying 31 % tax with no deductions. My income tax was 22 %, with other taxes making up the difference. You can easily confirm this through the tax calculator. Today, with my deductions, I'd be paying 23 % total taxes.

The notion that the average income tax is 45 % is too facepalm for words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
If comparing your tax level in NYC and finding it higher than Norway, I do suggest than you must have had a pretty lofty penthouse suite on Manhattan, with property taxes to match.

....25% sales tax, property tax, inheritance tax, road tax, high fuel tax, toll charges...the list goes on... in total has an extremely high tax level - and many feel they are taxed more than they ever bargained for.
Well, lets do the maths. If I was earning 100 000 $ working in New York City I'd be paying New York State income tax, United States federal income tax, New York City income tax, social security income tax, and medicare tax.

The entire amount of salary would be subject to social security income tax and medicare tax. Those two taxes total 7.65%, so that is $7,650.

Then I'd take the salary, subtract $5700 for the "standard deduction" and ordinarily $3650 each for myself and each child. $100,000 minus $5700 minus $3650 leaves $90,650 That results in $19,300 of U.S. federal income tax, and $27,000 total tax so far. New York City tax and New York State tax adds another 11 000 $.

So thats a total tax of 38 %. Compared to my 31 % in Norway. (This is a theoretical calculation for me, and real NYC residents are welcome to correct me)

Now, I'd have more surcharges and a higher cost of living in Norway, but there are also more substantial tax deductions available there, and no health care etc expenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
And clearly, Wikipedia is not a good source on the tax level of foreign countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
My MAIN question is: if the a government driven socialized health care system is so successful in protecting it`s citizens, how come more and more are getting private coverage? How come more and more are getting treatment overseas? Shouldn`t there be some redundancy here?
Why are you assuming more and more people are getting private coverage? More people are getting treatment in Europe because it turns out to be cheaper than building up specialist units for rare cases in a small population. Norwegian people that is. 1 - 1,5 million Americans get treatment abroad because of cost.

Actually, the reason private health care is on the upswing is simply that the insurance companies are running an advertising campaign. These things have a periodicity. Insurance companies sell health insurance to worried people and then get in trouble with the law since they cannot show that their insurance has any benefits whatsoever. (I particularly liked the insurance Insurance salesmans quote "That customer was incredibly dim. I finally managed to sell one of those health insurance policies")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
More and more citizens are not buying the hype that they and their families are well protected. Of course anyone within the system will try to make you believe the opposite. The whole idea of socialized medicine is that everyone MUST contribute.

We are not talking about 80 year olds with prostate cancer, we are talking 50 year olds with prostate cancer. That are not satisfied with the operate and burn procedure in Norway, that are not satisfied waiting 8 months for treatment. Anyone with internet - and an interest for saving his own life - will find superior treatment else where. Even doctors admit it, but not officially of course.
Yeah, no. Since I work in the system, have family here, and have seen lots of people I know go through it, I am simply going to have to tell you to sit down and stop sprouting off about things you clearly know nothing about. ("socialized medicine"? In what sense is the Norwegian health care system socialized medicine?) Pretty much nothing you've written so far has been anywhere close to reality, so I don't think I'm going to take the time to address delusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
Even IMS Health, an US based health information provider has concluded that Norway is spending less and less per year on for instance cancer medicine. Norway is spending 20% less costwise on cancer medicine than in 2002???? This country is also according to their studies among the countries in the Western hemisphere than has the LOWEST increase in medicine usage. All other comparable countries have increased their usage. How does one explain that? Is cancer medicine fast becoming too expensive for the government program?
You seem to be proceeding on the assumption that more spending = better results.

That is clearly not the case. Pretty much every public health measure show Norway doing better than the US. Something it has in common with most first world countries, all of which spend vastly less money than the US. (Even if the US does legitimately do a bit better in the area of cancer treatments)

Aslo, "socialized medicine" and the notion that the US cannot implement the same policies as other countries l due to size are both American key phrases. If you live elsewhere for a while, you might notice that people elsewhere do not say stuff like that.

Finally, in a surprising development, putting four question marks at the end of a sentence does not actually add to its credibility!
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Vik
392 posts, read 415,632 times
Reputation: 396
The media is incorrect, wikipedia is incorrect, IMS Health is incorrect, people are stupid buying insurance...WOW!

Do you actually believe what you are saying? And yes, I pay 45% income tax, and "joda, dessverre jeg er norsk"
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:48 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,592,503 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
The media is incorrect, wikipedia is incorrect, IMS Health is incorrect, people are stupid buying insurance...WOW!

Do you actually believe what you are saying? And yes, I pay 45% income tax, and "joda, dessverre jeg er norsk"
Yes I believe what I'm saying. I don't believe what you are saying.

The media is often incorrect, or uninformed, or write sensationalist articles based on poor comprehension of complex subjects. Wikipedia -the encyclopedia that anyone can edit- isn't really a source to trust when better sources say the exact opposite. This should not be a surprise. IMS Health my very well be correct, but you are drawing a an almost idiomatically erroneous conclusion from what they are saying.
As for people who buy health care insurance in Norway being stupid, that was the opinion of the insurance salespeople.

And while I don't want to blow your mind, the fact is...people often say things like "Everyone wants to emigrate to America" or "We have the highest taxes in the world" or "Our health care sucks" or even "He is a dog person" and none of these things are literally true!

They express a sentiment -that America is popular, that someone is unhappy with his taxes or health care, or that someone prefers dogs to cats. They're not actually the literal truth, and you can't base an adult opinion on them.

And as for this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
Do you actually believe what you are saying? And yes, I pay 45% income tax, and "joda, dessverre jeg er norsk"
First off, it is either "Joda, desverre er jeg norsk" or more commonly "Joda, jeg er dessverre norsk". "joda, dessverre jeg er norsk" is the kind of mixed-up word sequence you get from an online translator. Because that is how the words line up in English. "Yeah, unfortunatly I am Norwegian". Each word translated in order, without any Norwegian syntax.

Second, no you don't pay 45 % income tax in Norway. No. One. Does. Did you ever see the anyones tax records that showed that kind of tax rate?

Income tax in Norway is a flat 28 % up to roughly $ 150 000, than increasing up to 40 % on everything above 250 000 $. 40 % income tax is the maximum possible. Thats not Wikipedia or a news article, thats Norwegian tax law and statistics bureau. We just went thrugh how you can't exceed 48 % total taxes, and that is with your 7,9 % social security included.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Vik
392 posts, read 415,632 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader View Post
Yes I believe what I'm saying. I don't believe what you are saying.

The media is often incorrect, or uninformed, or write sensationalist articles based on poor comprehension of complex subjects. Wikipedia -the encyclopedia that anyone can edit- isn't really a source to trust when better sources say the exact opposite. This should not be a surprise. IMS Health my very well be correct, but you are drawing a an almost idiomatically erroneous conclusion from what they are saying.
As for people who buy health care insurance in Norway being stupid, that was the opinion of the insurance salespeople.

And while I don't want to blow your mind, the fact is...people often say things like "Everyone wants to emigrate to America" or "We have the highest taxes in the world" or "Our health care sucks" or even "He is a dog person" and none of these things are literally true!

They express a sentiment -that America is popular, that someone is unhappy with his taxes or health care, or that someone prefers dogs to cats. They're not actually the literal truth, and you can't base an adult opinion on them.

And as for this...

First off, it is either "Joda, desverre er jeg norsk" or more commonly "Joda, jeg er dessverre norsk". "joda, dessverre jeg er norsk" is the kind of mixed-up word sequence you get from an online translator. Because that is how the words line up in English. "Yeah, unfortunatly I am Norwegian". Each word translated in order, without any Norwegian syntax.

Second, no you don't pay 45 % income tax in Norway. No. One. Does. Did you ever see the anyones tax records that showed that kind of tax rate?

Income tax in Norway is a flat 28 % up to roughly $ 150 000, than increasing up to 40 % on everything above 250 000 $. 40 % income tax is the maximum possible. Thats not Wikipedia or a news article, thats Norwegian tax law and statistics bureau. We just went thrugh how you can't exceed 48 % total taxes, and that is with your 7,9 % social security included.
JEEZ, you blew my cover....My name Hugo Gonzales and I am a car washer from West LA.

I am a tax refugee from the US, and I moved to Norway since I enjoy paying $ 11,- per gallon gasoline, $ 100,- for a carton of Camel and $ 13,- for a half liter beer..

I also enjoy the late trains, lousy roads, bad TV, tasteless food, criminals on Karl Johan and cold winters. But now I`m lucky, I worked a few months and now I am trygdet. I got so much in welfare now, I`m going back to West LA - and I`m gonna be king of the hill.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Punta Gorda and Maryland
6,102 posts, read 13,105,215 times
Reputation: 1220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
JEEZ, you blew my cover....My name Hugo Gonzales and I am a car washer from West LA.

I am a tax refugee from the US, and I moved to Norway since I enjoy paying $ 11,- per gallon gasoline, $ 100,- for a carton of Camel and $ 13,- for a half liter beer..

I also enjoy the late trains, lousy roads, bad TV, tasteless food, criminals on Karl Johan and cold winters. But now I`m lucky, I worked a few months and now I am trygdet. I got so much in welfare now, I`m going back to West LA - and I`m gonna be king of the hill.
Do Vikings really like freeze dried fish?
I guess I'm asking the wrong person. . .
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Vik
392 posts, read 415,632 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big House View Post
Do Vikings really like freeze dried fish?
I guess I'm asking the wrong person. . .


They will eat anything that swims and has a tail..

You really should try lutefisk one day..
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:54 PM
 
1,264 posts, read 1,360,277 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingen View Post
They will eat anything that swims and has a tail..

You really should try lutefisk one day..
Try lutefisk and it's 50-50 that you'll sell your boat and all your rods, maybe move to the desert. My grandmother was a good cook, and it was still disgusting.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Vik
392 posts, read 415,632 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpc691 View Post
Try lutefisk and it's 50-50 that you'll sell your boat and all your rods, maybe move to the desert. My grandmother was a good cook, and it was still disgusting.
What do you mean by disgusting?? With the looks of jellyfish and taste like logwood I find it delicious, but normally after a few drams of aquavit.

Did your grandma force you to eat lutefisk? I call that child abuse
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