Brightleaf - New Homes in Durham on 70 (Raleigh, Cary: chapel, loan)

[Mikeheel]

Yes, I have been to downtown lately, and it looks much improved. Don't mistake me; I'm pro-Durham. I was born in Durham over 40 years ago, have lived in the Triangle all my life, and my wife and I chose to live in Durham the past 15 years until last month. I think Durham overall gets a bad rap. But there are some truths about appreciation and certain areas being less favorable.

BL is unique and it will a good development if it makes it through the current market (and I think it will). But it's in the wrong part of Durham. Drive up and down 70; there's a lot of junky places there. And the fact Shea, the high-end builder for the community, is scaling back is a huge red flag. In the end, that means BL will not be able to live up to the original billing.

Even with promised imroved development on the way, there will be a mix of good and bad. BL will be part of the good. There will more good on the Raleigh side. There will be some good on the Durham side. But that part of 70 in Durham has been junk for 25 years, and it's going to stay that way. Any change there will be EXTREMELY slow.

As for the tax impact, I actuall ran the numbers, and it makes a huge difference. Most folks assume Durham has a lower tax rate, but it's the opposite.

IMO,
Mike

[sneezecake]

I think the crux of Mike's position which kind of fell through the cracks here is the price point that his house was at - at just over 500k, I agree with his decision to have backed out of his house - I do think that at that price, area comps don't yet justify such an investment. That's not to say they will never do so, but as they always say you don't want to have the nicest house in the neighborhood, and Mike's would have been close to that.

That said, a family is very happily living in that house (albeit at a slightly lower price than Mike was contracted at), and driving through yesterday I saw that one of the largest inventory homes (St. Lawrence, priced near 500k) was under contract.

My point with considering his price point is that 95% of the homes in Brightleaf right now are below 450k and probably 80% are below 400k.

IMO, part of Shea's problem is not the market or sales team, but the fact that the "Glen", their high-end village, isn't even built yet. There are 3 streets that have 80% of the lots on their plan map, and that street doesn't exist. Had they had those lots available, I think there would have been a lot more movement with those homes. As it is, Shea had very few top quality available lots, and someone spending over 450k on a home will want just that.

On the other hand, the home we are building there is going to be just under $360k and at that price, I am entirely happy with things - we have a primo lot, Shea has been helpful so far, and I have tons of confidence in the development of the area in the next 5-10 years. Ask me about 2 years and I wouldn't be as certain as the community builds out and as development around the area begins, but the location is simply too good (geographically) to not eventually find itself in demand.

My conclusion through this process (we signed on our home a month ago) is that Shea IS the high end builder in Brightleaf, even having scaled back some of the standard features to get the base prices down, and we're getting a Shea home for less than what many have paid on the Drees and St Lawrence product, and what people continue to pay for those with upgrade charges...and we have a great lot. With the quality of the neighborhood and the promise for the future, if you are anywhere under that 450k range in there and you choose carefully, you have great potential. If you want to build your 5000 sq foot forever dream home and raise 8 kids there, there are probably better places to do it. In the 2000-3500 sq foot and 200k-400k price range I didn't find any/many better neighborhoods with such a great location.

[sbanawan]

I agree with sneezecake's description. BL is going to be a great place to live. As coltank mentioned, the planned community is second to none in the triangle. The location does raise some question marks but it's far enough back in its own area to be insulated from it.

And out of all the builders there, Shea is by far the best value. My only concern with BL is actually what's going on on the other side of the development. Standard Pacific has dropped their home prices again, now starting at $199k. They are going to kill resale value in their part of BL for a while. I hate to say it, but they're kind of dragging the place down. Don't get me wrong, they have some very cute houses and if there weren't so many of them in one place (The Crossing), we would have considered them more. In fact, my wife and I agree that if you put a Standard Pacific house in an older neighborhood with more character, we definitely be interested.

Obviously, the community will take some time to build out, but by the time it's done, I bet we're back on track with the real estate market and the people who buy there now will see a lot of appreciation. 70 can only go one way and with Brier Creek's influence, it's definitely going to improve.

Keep your fingers crossed that the elementary school being built is a good one and Durhamites will flock there. Not just to BL, but to surrounding neighborhoods. Oak Grove sucks, so people will want to move closer to the BL school. Parents who live in BL: get involved with the PTA! Make sure that school does well. Go to the fundraisers, sporting events, plays, everything! Nothing affects a family's decision more than a good school.

That said, we're probably going to build in Grandale, for many reasons. BL is second on the list right now.

[Bull City Rising]

Originally Posted by sbanawan

Oak Grove sucks, so people will want to move closer to the BL school. Parents who live in BL: get involved with the PTA! Make sure that school does well. Go to the fundraisers, sporting events, plays, everything! Nothing affects a family's decision more than a good school.

You're right on the conclusion, but worth noting that a school's performance really has nothing more to do with anything than the socioeconomic basis of a particular school attendance zone. Interestingly, some studies on magnet schools in Durham have found that the socioeconomic integration coupled with specialized curricula help the performance of both high- and low-SES students, particularly those of Latino descent.

Of course, socioeconomic integration is a bad word 'round much of the Triangle for reasons that go off-topic.

Back on topic, I love BL and my wife and I thought about moving there briefly. But we really love being right in the city and just feel so much more connected to the neighborhood and our neighbors. My neighbors include new arrivals like us, 60+ year residents, investment bankers, students, and a whole mix of people who bring a diversity to an area.

I think the question of price in Durham is a real one. I'm not convinced yet that a $400k+ house will sell quickly on resale in a place like the US 70 corridor. OTOH, I've seen a couple of $650k houses in Trinity Park and Watts-Hillandale disappear from the market in a matter of a couple of weeks, and we recently had a bidding war for a house in one of the historic neighborhoods.

I tend to think South Durham is similarly safe due to the presence of new shopping and access to RTP. On the flip side, having finally driven all the way up to Treyburn, I can't imagine ever wanting to spend the prices demanded to live in what's a nice subdivision in the middle of nowhere. (It's probably a faster commute from a good chunk of Wake Co. to RTP than it is from Treyburn there.)

Also worth noting that Durham's higher tax rates have contributed to a ceiling of sorts on property values, so even if you do pay $400k to live in Durham, that's less than what you'd pay for a similar home in a Wake County community, I suspect.

[coltank]

Originally Posted by Bull City Rising

You're right on the conclusion, but worth noting that a school's performance really has nothing more to do with anything than the socioeconomic basis of a particular school attendance zone. Interestingly, some studies on magnet schools in Durham have found that the socioeconomic integration coupled with specialized curricula help the performance of both high- and low-SES students, particularly those of Latino descent.

Of course, socioeconomic integration is a bad word 'round much of the Triangle for reasons that go off-topic.

Back on topic, I love BL and my wife and I thought about moving there briefly. But we really love being right in the city and just feel so much more connected to the neighborhood and our neighbors. My neighbors include new arrivals like us, 60+ year residents, investment bankers, students, and a whole mix of people who bring a diversity to an area.

I think the question of price in Durham is a real one. I'm not convinced yet that a $400k+ house will sell quickly on resale in a place like the US 70 corridor. OTOH, I've seen a couple of $650k houses in Trinity Park and Watts-Hillandale disappear from the market in a matter of a couple of weeks, and we recently had a bidding war for a house in one of the historic neighborhoods.

I tend to think South Durham is similarly safe due to the presence of new shopping and access to RTP. On the flip side, having finally driven all the way up to Treyburn, I can't imagine ever wanting to spend the prices demanded to live in what's a nice subdivision in the middle of nowhere. (It's probably a faster commute from a good chunk of Wake Co. to RTP than it is from Treyburn there.)

Also worth noting that Durham's higher tax rates have contributed to a ceiling of sorts on property values, so even if you do pay $400k to live in Durham, that's less than what you'd pay for a similar home in a Wake County community, I suspect.

Hi BCR, good to see you around, and as always an excellent and intelligent post. What are your thoughts on the US 70 corridor? I see great things now that development has begun to happen due to the fact it is so close to RTP and RDU. The way I see it, the things people are saying right now about this section of the 70 corridor were the same things they were saying about alternate areas before the emergence of Southpoint or Brier Creek.

[Mikeheel]

I'd disagree that 70 in Durham is like Southpoint or Brier Creek. Without 540 going by, Brier Creek would have suffered. But 540 is there, and Brier Creek thrives. There is nothing like that about to hit BL, and the North Durham Expressway is some time off and will not be something that connects BL to the main work hub of the Triangle; it will simply run through it connecting other areas. Also, the area of 70 for Brier Creek is FAR better than the area of 70 around BL, although there are certainly a few seedy areas near Brier Creek.

The Southpoint area is also different. There was not 30+ years of bad development there (junk yards, mediums, "massage parlors," and stuff, like are out on 70 in Durham). The Southpoint area was close to a blank slate. That's what has made it work so uniformly.

I agree with BCR & Sneezecake, BL can be successful in the mid-range. But it aimed higher and missesd. It's still a good place and should be a major plus to Durham for years, despite that. It just wasn't what I signed up for, and I admit I resent how Shea handled the deal (in particular, since I felt strongly the off-site folks were not honest with us).

There are few areas in Durham that can sustain the type of value seen in 450k+ homes (Forest Hills, Duke Forest, and Hope Valley come to mind). This is due in part to taxes and to the bad rep Durham gets. You can get a good deal on a 400-500k home in Durham. But you'll suffer with depressed appreciation and higher taxes than if you buy in Wake, Orange, or even Chatham.

Mike

[MrsSteel]

Originally Posted by Mikeheel

There are few areas in Durham that can sustain the type of value seen in 450k+ homes (Forest Hills, Duke Forest, and Hope Valley come to mind). This is due in part to taxes and to the bad rep Durham gets. You can get a good deal on a 400-500k home in Durham. But you'll suffer with depressed appreciation and higher taxes than if you buy in Wake, Orange, or even Chatham.

Mike

That last statement is pretty broad, Mike, and seems to conflict with other things you've said. What I and others have noticed is that appreciation can vary greatly from place to place, even within a county or a town or even within a zip code. There are some areas in Durham where the appreciation values have been fairly stagnant, but others where the appreciation rate is quite favorable. As you seemed to indicate earlier in that same paragraph, it's not a good idea to consider appreciation rates on a county-wide scale because it can vary so so much.

But as you say, you really can't compare Brier Creek and Southpoint to the area around Brightleaf. That part of Durham simply doesn't have the same ammenities. That could change in time and the people who bought in Brightleaf will benefit. Who knows, maybe this will be the beginning of a great rennaisance in Oak Grove. However I have yet to hear about any other developments (other than housing) planned for that area. If anyone has more info, I'd certainly love to hear it as I have a number of friends who live around there.

As for taxes, that's really something that needs to be addressed on an individual basis. For some people, the rate is a huge negative. And yet others manage to save a good deal of money by choosing to live in Durham.

We bought a home in Durham despite the higher tax rate. Why? Because (1) we could get more house for the money and (2) our house is much closer to my husband's job & ammenities like shopping and restaurants. This means we spend far less on gasoline and maintenance on our cars. Even our car insurance is lower because our mileage is so much less. The money we save simply on our cars more than makes up for the slightly higher tax rate.

The big difference between me and Mike, though, is that his housing budget is twice as much as mine ... which means his tax bill would be a lot higher. It's hard to make up the difference when you're paying the kind of tax bill that Mike was facing.


Chalk it up to individual needs. For some people, buying in Durham is an excellent deal. Others are better off elsewhere. Nothing wrong with either choice. You just have to do what is best for you.

[PDXmom]

Is the BL elementary school the one that is slated to open this fall to relieve crowding at Oak Grove? Oak Grove currently has 900+ kids... the largest elementary in Durham. I agree w/ the poster who recommends that BL parents get involved in their schools quickly. It will help establised the new school and make your area more desirable. Homeowners in the BL area w/out kids will benefit by supporting that school as well. Even if you aren't planning on having children a good school will help your appreciation.

I also agree w/ Mike regarding his comments about taxes. While we are in a lower tax zone than the 500K mark, I don't feel that the Southpoint area or all of South Durham gets as much value for our tax dollars. There are very few public parks in this area. We have Herndon Park (primarily a sports complex) because the Herndon Family generously donated the land to the city. But there are next to no parks and rec activities in this area for kids. The majority of sports are through the bigger subdivisions like Woodcroft or Parkwood. And there are no public pools in South Durham. Not all subdivisions have pools and not everyone down here lives in a subdivision. But we are all tax payers of the city and county (well all of us except the few farmers left and they certainly deserve to get a break!)

I agree w/ Mrs. Steel that I got more "house for the money". But for us our budget was X. We spent X in Durham and got a newer home w/ upgrades. We could have spent X in North Raleigh and got the same sized house that was older and without the upgrades. In the long run the houses in North Raleigh would have cost more in upgrades but considering the tax rate in Durham is about .43 more than Wake the upgrades would have eventually paid for themselves in tax dollars. And in Wake I would have gotten a whole lot more in parks and green spaces, without having to drive as far.

I'm not bashing Durham. I like Durham. I like the funky, grittiness of parts of the city. Even the suburbs here seem to attract people who are a little more on the edges like me. I like that. But it's just weird that Durham's taxes are so much more than Wake's, yet it's services and schools (not scores but teachers pay and building new schools) are not at the same level as Wake. Maybe it's an economy of scale thing... maybe Durham just isn't big enough (land wise) to generate enough revenue. Durham County use to be part of Orange Co and Wake Co until it formed it's own county, thus it's a smaller land mass.

Whatever it is, IMHO, Durham City Government (and some newspaper folks) need to recognize that the growth centers are now South Durham and North Durham. And these areas add the tax base and thus need & deserve services just like the rest of the county and city.

Ok, I'm off my soap box now. Feel free to let the rebuttals fly!

[sneezecake]

Well, we seem to have gotten on to an entirely different topic here

But on the tax subject, isn't the tax rate supposed to reset this summer given the property value re-assessments?

And yes, the new school is intended to relieve overcrowding not only at Oak Grove, but two other schools (though mostly Oak Grove)

The geographic data is available on the Durham public schools website, but it pretty much runs from 70 up to Sherron and to the east - I believe developments like Ravenstone will go to the new school, but Grove Park will remain with Oak Grove.

And when discussing areas like North Raleigh versus Durham, yes when comparing apples to apples in terms of tax dollars + property tax + public facilities, other areas may improve in the value department, but that discounts one very important factor - location. For people working in RTP or points west of there, North Raleigh becomes a difficult proposition. My fiancee works in North Durham and I work in southern RTP...I can't think of a better location for both of us than Brightleaf...so even if the shoe was on the other foot and another area represented the best home and neighborhood for the money, the physical location is truly great.

On top of that, should life circumstances ever change and one of our places of employment changes, we're not in an area where our life could drastically be altered. Wake Forest, Chapel Hill, Downtown Raleigh, Downtown Durham, any one of those is within a reasonable commute - had we chosen to live in Chapel Hill or Wake Forest, then we're a bit more stuck.

One thing I can definitely say, and I think we can all agree on this: I wish developers would build more communities like Brightleaf in all areas of the triangle. I really can't wait to move in!

[PDXmom]

Originally Posted by sneezecake

Well, we seem to have gotten on to an entirely different topic here

But on the tax subject, isn't the tax rate supposed to reset this summer given the property value re-assessments?

There was in article in Saturday's Durham edition of the N & O that said the City is thinking of increasing the tax rate in Durham even though property values went up. This info colors part of my rant.

Originally Posted by sneezecake

And when discussing areas like North Raleigh versus Durham, yes when comparing apples to apples in terms of tax dollars + property tax + public facilities, other areas may improve in the value department, but that discounts one very important factor - location. For people working in RTP or points west of there, North Raleigh becomes a difficult proposition. My fiancee works in North Durham and I work in southern RTP...I can't think of a better location for both of us than Brightleaf...so even if the shoe was on the other foot and another area represented the best home and neighborhood for the money, the physical location is truly great.

I agree about the location thing. My hubby works from home, so location is not as important to us. But I do like being in the center of the Triangle. Chapel Hill feels very close. And Raleigh felt close before gas hit 3.95.

And Sneezecake, since your developer is supplying many of the services that I'm referring to you will probably be extremely happy with your choice.

But to me, it just feels like the city of Durham is letting developers do their job..... providing city services like parks and pools and such. Heck, one of the reasons that a new school is going in BL is because the developer gave the land for it.

Originally Posted by sneezecake

One thing I can definitely say, and I think we can all agree on this: I wish developers would build more communities like Brightleaf in all areas of the triangle. I really can't wait to move in!

While I think BL is a lovely area and a model in some ways for new communities, more of these takes the burden off the city to provide services to it's tax base. It's almost like if you live in certain parts of Durham you are expected to pay your city taxes to support things like parks and pools, which you really won't have near by, and you are expected to pay your HOA fee for your pool and walking trails and park. It's like a double tax.

Sorry about getting off topic. AG, I promise I'm done now. If not I'll open my own thread.