Totally Freaked About Moving to Raleigh! (Durham, Cary: relocation, trip , work)

[IdaClaire]

You don't have to build an entire transit system all at once. One line can open from RTP to downtown Raleigh, stopping at RDU, Cary, NC State and ending at downtown Raleigh. Just having NC State on the line would bring loads of riders who do not have cars. It could similarly get extended to Duke and Durham, and Chapel Hill and UNC, as well as North Raleigh.

Thank you for mentioning this. I do love living here, but whenever I travel to cities like DC or New York, I do mourn our lack of public transportation. I would give my eyeteeth for us as a family to only keep one car. The lack of public transportation in this area is the one thing that might cause talented employees to choose other regions.

There are many people in Durham now who are commuting to NC State on a new busline, the TTA has some decent routes, Chapel Hill proper has a fabulous free bus system, and some employers have vanpool options, but I think public transit is still woefully lacking in an area that prides itself on being a large thinktank.

[jello212]

Jfre, would you say the 2 largest problems for the triangle is the lack of mass transit system and overcrowding in the schools?

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by IdaClaire

I think public transit is still woefully lacking in an area that prides itself on being a large thinktank.

Knowing that the "we can't do that" mentality is so prevalent in such a place is a bit disheartening as well. If the Wright Brothers said "we can't fly an airplane" what would be on NC's license plates? A pack of Marlboro Reds?

As for people deciding to move to counties other than Wake or Durham - if those people are still working at RTP or downtown Raleigh, they will still be driving, and it will be even harder to enfranchise them to a transit system.

One other obstacle is the state allotting funds to something that is going to take cars off the roads, reducing revenue from vehicle property taxes and road use taxes.

[Waterboy526]

Originally Posted by lamishra

Eventually, the area is going to grow large anough and expensive enough, that growth will slow as part of a natural process, and so will the schools. People are already moving out to areas like Johnston County and Chatham County which 10 years ago was almost unthinkable. It's part of a bigger picture that will continue to cycle through. Right now the growth is here and we're dealing with it, in 5-10 years, my bet is that growth will slow significantly in Wake County as more and more people get priced out and we'll be hearing the same crap from people in Johnston, Chatham, Orange, Granville and Durham Counties that we hear now.

BTW, there is already a mass transit line to and from RTP in place to NCSU, Cary, Apex, Garner, Chapel Hill, downtown Raleigh and more called the TTA.

I can agree with your thinking somewhat, but I think your wrong about Wake slowing down within 5-10 years. Wake still has SO much room to grow. When the extreme tips of the county get to be the same density of parts of North Raleigh and Cary, then we will be slowing down in growth, etc. This county will be growing strong for another 20-25 years. One year might be slower then another, but in 5-10 years you won't see growth slow to a trickle or anything like that. This county coule easily be double the population in 25-30 years.

Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by jello212

Jfre, would you say the 2 largest problems for the triangle is the lack of mass transit system and overcrowding in the schools?

More like the lack of a plan to keep the transportation system, whatever it is, on a pace to where it can accommodate a growing population. And if you don't want big eight-lane freeways with four-lane access roads (they actually have such a thing in Katy, Texas) then transit is the way to go. Since this is about Austin and Raleigh, Austin is another city that needs to extend transit into the suburbs to keep it from becoming the concrete jungle Austinites fear of becoming. Despite the tone of the OP's post/complaint there are actually quite a few parallels between the two cities.

The schools - every place that is growing quickly has overcrowding schools but Wake County is the first I've heard of any school being forced to go year-round because otherwise there isn't enough space. I drove by Crockett High School on the south side of Austin about a week ago, and I didn't see any trailers and school was not in session in the middle of July.

Here's another thing that scares me about the long-term prognosis for NC:

State tax levels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can see from these charts that NC actually has a relatively high individual state-level tax burden, especially when compared with the level of income. Where it is cheaper to live you get paid less. That state income tax of NC's is bad - it tops off at 8.25%, which is steep for just about anyone coming from someplace besides California. Most of the states that rank higher than NC on state-level taxation are not growing, or if anything, not growing anywhere close to the level of NC. When growth forces upgrading infrastructure and there is no way to pay for it, taxes will go up. So if you are moving to get away from high taxes (Cali, New England except for New Hampshire etc.) NC is not your best bet.

If you are moving from Texas you might save on property taxes but the state will get you elsewhere. Your insurance will be cheaper in NC, but if you've got a Jaguar, kiss your savings goodbye on paying that vehicle property tax.]

[Greeny]

BTW, there is already a mass transit line to and from RTP in place to NCSU, Cary, Apex, Garner, Chapel Hill, downtown Raleigh and more called the TTA.

There are many people in Durham now who are commuting to NC State on a new busline, the TTA has some decent routes, Chapel Hill proper has a fabulous free bus system, and some employers have vanpool options, but I think public transit is still woefully lacking in an area that prides itself on being a large thinktank.

The reason mass transit expansion is not being invested in is because people do not use what is currently in available. Why build a light-rail system when people don't even ride the TTA? I've ridden the TTA around the Triangle and it is as convenient as you can possibly hope it to be considering there is no more than 10-15 other people on the bus at any given time.

This is a problem that lies in the public's view of public transportation, not local government's shortcomings. People would rather sit in traffic in their SUV burning gas rather than to sit on a bus. Its a by-product of the suburban lifestyle that so many people have embraced. I'm hoping the revitalization efforts of the downtown areas will encourage people to think differently.

[lamishra]

Jfre, I am not speaking in terms of "we cannot do it", I never said that, I said the area doesn't lend itself well to a centralized mass transit system because there is no centralized work area right now that you would find in other metro areas. Maybe that will change one day.

It already exists and no one uses it because it's viewed as "inconvenient" to have use it when you can drive yourself and get there quicker because honestly, traffic and parking, (two major reasons why people use mass transit) are already available and convenient in the triangle area. Until it reaches critical mass, this suburban area with it's it's 400K homes and 60K vehicles won't use it because they don't have to. The TTA is extremely convenient, but people choose not to use it because they don't have to. You can get anywhere you want in the triangle using the TTA system.

And I do agree my number thinking on years of growth in Wake County may be off. You are probably right that the areas will continue to grow for decades, but I still think the growth RATE we've seen in the last 5-10 years will begin to slow down and people WILL begin looking in more affordable areas with more land. They already have. Clayton looks like Cary did 15 years ago.

As for Year round schools: they have been used widely across the country to alleviate crowding. It's not a system invented by Wake County. WCPSS messed up badly by trying to FORCE it on people and they are currently suffering the public and media backlash for that. But it doesn't mean that year round schools are bad, in fact the last estimate I read said that about 50% of residents approve of year round schools. But like anyone else, people want choice. Just like when WCPSS started magnets in lower income areas, people resisted initially, but then slowly began to understand and appreciate the benefits of the new system and and adapted, choosing these schools specifically over traditional curriculum. Now, WCPSS magnets are some of the best in the system. It make take a few years, but year round options may get there too one day and we personally know lots of people who choose it and truly enjoy it. Options and choices are good. Hopefully WCPSS gets that now.

[jfre81]

There isn't a centralized work area in Houston either.

I recall one four-mile weekday evening rush-hour trip outside of Garner taking 40 minutes. You have a lot of things to do when you're sitting in traffic, including counting time. (96.1 is also an awesome rock station, blows anything on Houston's airwaves away and made the sitting a bit easier. But yeah, four miles, 40 minutes. I can jog a mile in seven minutes flat. No accidents or anything caused this level of traffic. Just that many people driving to get home well away from where they live. I dealt with this everyday because the traffic from NC 42 and I-40 would pile up outside my subdivision. Single-file traffic literally a mile or longer. This was absolutely mindblowing to me, after thinking I'd seen the worst suburban road planning outside of the large cities in Texas.

Johnston County is actually going over local voters' heads and approving new subdivisions near 42 because they are that desperate for more revenue. It is only going to make that problem worse and make those already-worn roads deteriorate that much faster.

I had to go from this area to WakeMed in Raleigh on a nearly daily basis, including going up there leaving around 7 a.m. That trip could take me 45-50 minutes sometimes. I can almost always clear the same distance across Houston faster than that (and yes, you can travel that far in the city of Houston and remain in its limits). Traffic may not be so bad where you are, but if it's where a lot of people are seeking to live, it's going to get bad.

[lamishra]

Well, I'm in central Cary, so I can't imagine that traffic is lighter here than usual. If it were really that bad in Garner, the TTA does have a Garner route. I can get from Cary to Wake Med (where I used to work) in 20 minutes on average. People just aren't ready to give up their cars here I think.

[jfre81]

In Cary you have better access to the beltline. I actually had no more problems getting around on the outer Beltline heading toward WakeMed. It was I-40 in Johnston County and Garner/42 that was a beast. Your only alternative is White Oak/Cornwallis which is partially cut off now because of the US70 bypass or whatever that isn't going to be finished for another three years or so.

To be clear, I do own a car and you still need to own a car here as you do in Raleigh, but it is getting where you don't have to drive all the time to get everywhere and it's nice. I can take a 10-minute drive to park my car, go downtown, do things, have a good time (including taking in mind that I won't have to drive at least until I ride the rail back to where my car is parked, if you follow).

And before we get all worked up about this TTA thing - it's still a bus. Buses are good for linking people from home to a mass transit system that does not use the public roads. Buses unloading and loading everywhere only serve to slow down traffic if it's the only alternative to driving yourself. It's not a legitimate mass transit system. We've had the METRO bus system in Houston for years. Now if you don't live right on the rail line here, you can ride the bus to it instead of all the way to work where you're stopping at the same red lights and bottlenecks that everyone else is.