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I'm with Mike & Vicki. - yes Vicki, I'm waiting for the big marijuana religious debate now too haha :-))
For some who believe in Christianity, science has totally overstepped all ethical and spiritual boundaries in many ways - in which, children are being taught in school that evolution IS fact: Therefore, science IS trying to supersede Biblical Christianity, so they are NOT two separate issues, especially when Christianity is based on creationism and God, and many scientific theories are not. So yes, my children are being spiritually violated and offended with this "big bang" and "thirty kabillion years ago" and "man has evolved from apes" crazy nonsense; therefore, religion and science DO become intertwined when the school system forces down kids' throats all evolution and nothing creationistic. If anything, it should be equal playing ground. But enough on that...time will tell that story, because this world surely will not be around forever - hate to break it like this but according to Scripture, at that moment: "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...." :-) --so she gets "persecuted" for not being allowed to wear her nosering....my kids get "persecuted" every day having to listen to & learn ridiculousness for a grade and requirement for graduation.
And yes KC, what's good for one is good for all....so yes, if that's what it takes: then no jewelry to school for anyone, I'm fine with that. My kids are Christians, but they wouldn't go around screaming religious persecution if they were asked to take a piece of jewelry off (my son wears a sterling silver chain sometimes). At Rufner MS (in my earlier post), one of the reasons why they went to uniforms is because two kids got into an altercation at school over a coat. So now, this piercing crap has come to light, so let's put some rules at Clayton High about jewelry - elimate ALL of it if that's what it takes. This isn't a fashion show, who cares?
Main problem: Kids are not taught respect for authority anymore, partially because some parents don't even have respect for it: If it violates their wishes, then they're protesting in some form or fashion. So many teenage parents raising children....so parents are like, 30 when their kids enter high school....then they're trying to play "friend" instead of "parent." It comes down to good, old fashioned parenting sometimes, which includes teaching kids how to follow rules, even if the rules are "inconvenient". Rules are sometimes made generally/generically in consideration of "what may become" if situations are not addressed before they occur (i.e. dress codes, etc.) Sometimes they are worthy of modification (like now lol).
One day (when she's in the real world) she'll refuse to take that nose ring out at one point or another, and may get FIRED - then since NC is an "at will" state and they don't have to disclose reason for termination, she won't be able to sue anyone (nor will her parents) haha - so if NC is an "at will state" in employment practices, why is this case even in the court system? When she's 18 and out of school, she can do whatever she wants....
Hmmm...let's take a moment to ponder about piercings in general among our youth today. I'm not even going to TELL you parts of the body that some of these kids are getting pierced nowadays (it's DISGUSTING AND offensive, and I don't appreciate some of these kids even telling my kids about it!!!!!!). You think it's just the nose???? HAHA Okay....think AGAIN> Ask your KIDS where their friends are getting pierced! So yes, it can be (and IS) VERY offensive to some!!
If kids can't wear certain "gang related" colors to school, why should she be allowed to do this? So girl gets to keep nosering in. So then gang members say, ok it's a law, yes for us - the only thing we have to do is hollar "religious persecution!" Now this is how we're going to allow our members to self-identify in their gangs: With body piercings permitted by law of course, thanks to "religious freedom"...Like: Bloods can get religious piercings on the left side of their faces, and Crips can get some on the right side of their faces....again, all in the name of ..."religion" of course:-)
The other person posted earlier: Wearing the jewelry full-time is not even a requirement of body modification "religion." Have a court hearing about why my kids can't take textbooks home to study from @ Clayton High; or the rising gang problem at Clayton High; or why teachers can't get raises; or address issues surrounding that big fight that happened last week where my son was unknowingly walking out of class and almost got blindsided.... instead of some stupidity like: Gee I spent $15.00 on a piercing and now I can't wear my nosering to school and I'm reallly mad about it.
Last edited by bleighorr; 10-22-2010 at 02:16 PM..
I would bet my bottom dollar this is how it happened.
The girl got the piercing and the parents approved. Went to school and told she violated school rules and to take it out. Of course she hasn't been taught respect for authority so she refuses. Parents pick her up. Google it to see other instances and find that there is a religon based around this (which I feel is even made up as well just to satisfy someones personal desires). Then send her to school the next day with this excuse.
Standards are only getting lower in the US. I don't see any getting higher.
Yep, what Mike said! Tried to rep you
The stand the parents have taken is utter nonsense, bloomin ridiculous! They should be ashamed! Time for people to suck it up and follow the rules. I'm sick of people not respecting authority and our school system.
The stand the parents have taken is utter nonsense, bloomin ridiculous! They should be ashamed! Time for people to suck it up and follow the rules. I'm sick of people not respecting authority and our school system.
I'm with you!
The jewelry is not the issue. She can put that stud on a chain and wear it to school EVERY DAY!
The issue is that Johnston County says no facial piercings. It isn't really to keep students from wearing a small nose stud. It is there to keep students from having 25 piercings on their face, which DOES distract from studies.
The problem is...the school officials have better things to do than to look at each and every student and then decide how many piercings are ok so they just said...no facial piercings.
What if a student wears a t shirt with a giant cross and Jesus bleeding all over it, with some type of religious statement. It isn't the Religious part of it that is offensive to some but it could be the words or the graphic nature of it.
So, if school policy says no graphic t shirts, would that student break the rules because he says his t shirt is religious???
I believe you have to teach kids that rules are rules and they are there for a reason.
Just like covenants are rules in n'hoods and if you want to live there, you follow the rules. If you can't agree with those rules, live somewhere else. Everyone has choices.
Bottom line: she gets to keep her nose ring because the school's rule was found to be unconstitutional. Public schools can't make arbitrary rules that are unconstitutional, because that in itself is "breaking the rules"! So if we are really following the logic of "everyone should just follow the rules!" then it's really the school that was out of line in the first place, not the teen!
Luckily it seems that Wake and Durham County schools already knew that.
Bottom line: she gets to keep her nose ring because the school's rule was found to be unconstitutional. Public schools can't make arbitrary rules that are unconstitutional, because that in itself is "breaking the rules"! So if we are really following the logic of "everyone should just follow the rules!" then it's really the school that was out of line in the first place, not the teen!
Luckily it seems that Wake and Durham County schools already knew that.
What you are Raleigh Lass wrote are really part of the discussion. Raleigh Lass in a way suggests people should move to where the rules are compatible. Should school rules reflect the law or should they reflect the wishes of a part of the county? Should Johnston County school rules reflect the thinking of the Clayton area or the more rural areas? New residents or old time residents? The law as applied within a court districts jurisdiction or the the wishes of some within a school district? The question that begs to be answered by the school district is what is it about Johnston County that makes her nose ring so much more of a distraction than it would in Wake or Durham. What makes it so much more of a distraction at her school or one in Wake or Durham. Again was the school system attorney not up to the task in defending the policy or not up to the task when the policy was discussed and approved. Do educational rights vary when you cross county lines or does the responsibility to educate begin at the state level?
Has North Carolina actually adopted dress code guidelines or recommendations for school districts? It can make life a lot easier for them.
The following is an example of a school system's guidelines that is reasoned and designed to have a good chance of standing up in court. http://bvsd.org/policies/Policies/JICA-R.pdf
Quote:
1.
It shall articulate the interests the school wishes to promote. Such interests may include, but not be limited to, contributing to improved attendance, resulting in increased student achievement, and advancing community support.
Quote:
3.
It shall contain a clearly defined opt‐out provision for students who have a bona fide religious or philosophical objection.
The principal on the stand under the questioning of the schools systems attorney had to be able to clearly articulate how the dress code violation represented a disruption to the school. Failure to do so would result in the judge ruling at that point against the school. The failure to do so is then on the shoulders of those representing the district. lawyers don't like to lose so they usually try to recommend well written polices for adoption.
I tried to do a search for the Johnston County district dress code guidelines on their web site. I couldn't come up with any. Please someone find them and link them so we can compare and see what they were trying to support in court. Please don't let it be that the county never instituted guidelines for schools. Are their principals out there on their own with out legal opinion on what is and isn't supported by system policy? There was a clearly articulated, reviewed and approved school dress code correct? The district and their attorney had approved the schools dress code correct? Can someone relink corroboration of if I missed it.
There may be some schools in Wake or Durham (or Franklin, or Chatham, or...) where this would happen and some where it would not. I doubt that there is 100% agreement in any school district on such a gray area as this, just as many other Johnston county schools probably wouldn't have taken this on.
If what you say is true, chalk this up as a major policy failure of the district. There should be district wide guidelines or you will get eaten alive in court.
Tuborg, I couldn't find the code for JCo on their site; there's one on the web for Wake Co from back in 02, it was revised slightly in early '10 WCPSS: Board Approves New Dress Code Policy
And here's an NBC article Judge Allows Student To Return To School - Wake County - MyNC.com (http://www.mync.com/site/wake/news/story/55915/ - broken link) which has a snippet about JoCo's policy. It's ironic her lawyer is quoted as saying how smart she is, and needs to be in school. her mother could have resolved it day one by removing the piercing and sending her kid to school. I don't get why she doesn't put the education of her child ahead of her modification beliefs.
the OP asked, what do we think, and would this happen in Wake or Durham...hmm, It may well happen now with this case setting a precedence...I don't know what it will lead to other than the schools having less control of their environment. We keep taking from them, making it harder for educators to be educators. They are afraid of making decisions because we are a litigious society. The people who will the price are the kids as teachers will throw up their hands and say it's not worth it.
Re: Wake's dress code. In one of the links above, I think there is reference to girls being under more hardship b/c of the dress code in Wake compared to boys. Most people know that there are rules about the length of dresses and shorts. Straps on tops and dresses cannot be narrower than 2 finger widths. Do you know how hard it is to find stuff long enough and straps wide enough to pass muster?! This rule applies also to the school dance. I shopped all day one Sat with another mom as we tried in vain to find party dresses our girls could wear. We ended up buying something to go over the dress and altering the straps on another. While it was frustrating, I understood why a broad brush approach was needed in the code to insure that clothing was school appropriate.
Maybe next time I'll save myself the hassle and start the "Church" of narrow straps and short dresses; whose mission statement is to allow girls to exercise their right to choose fashionable clothes for 90 degree weather, thus facilitating fashion forwardness resulting in "spiritual" growth. I'm sure the ACLU can make this happen for us
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