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It seems like alot of people are always requesting a walkable town with shops, restaurants/cafe's, bars, etc. With all the hype about it, I think towns around the area would start considering about expanding their downtowns. I know Apex was mentioned as slowly growing, but not much about other downtowns. Why are the towns so sleepy if everyone is requesting more?
Am I missing anything that is more happening, even in Chapel Hill, Durham or anywhere else nearby? I think that if downtowns would grow, they would prosper. I like the idea of a hip historical downtown with lots to do. Things that stay open past 9PM as well.
Becky,
We still harbor a few vestiges of property rights. Although the power of public domain is habitually abused to take property from owners for pet projects, it can be a very expensive and time-consuming process.
Couple that with budgetary issues, and the towns are hard-pressed to take property and earmark scarce tax money and build a dream in the hopes of someone showing up to create a hubbub of activity.
If downtowns function, then they will thrive, and free-markets and private enterprise will make it happen.
A few years ago some frou-frou folk in Cary got wound up at the number of auto-oriented businesses on Chatham Street. "36 of them! What a blight!" And murmurs started about forcing property owners off their property for Dreamland redevelopment.
It was unsightly behavior, to say the least. And it failed.
A transmission shop that has been in place for 60 years may be a great contributor to the community, regardless if it doesn't provide festive atmosphere or draw hundreds of people on weekends and evenings.
I think towns are working on fostering an environment that promotes private investment in downtown areas, but you can't force it. A thriving downtown needs good planning, but can't be manufactured. It needs some help getting started but in the end needs to happen naturally.
Small-town downtowns used to be vibrant because they offered grocery stores, bakeries, clothing stores, beauty salons, barbers, drugstores, florists, and doctor offices.
Not anymore. Small-town downtowns are sleepy because Walmart dispensed a giant sleeping pill to all of them. The side effect was permanent sleep.
Now everyone is craving "vibrant" downtowns.
What's left to be put in a small-town downtown with Walmart handling most of the residents' needs? (Apparently, auto-oriented shops in Cary still provide a service that hasn't been gobbled by bigger businesses.)
People don't need to go downtown in most small towns these days. But they want to. They seem to crave "Main Street USA" as in Magic Kingdom in Disney. It offers restaurants, specialty clothing stores, and gift shops.
So for small-town downtowns, the only thing left is: restaurants (and bars), specialty clothing stores, and gift shops. They all have high failure rates, even in a good economy.
Downtowns did develop naturally, according to the needs of their residents, and the towns were "vibrant." Now those needs have all changed, but the residents still feel a need to go to the center of town, walk around, spend money, and see other people.
The only thing we have left to do is to Disney-fy small-town downtowns, but it takes $$$$. That seems to be in short supply everywhere (private investment and local/state), so I can't see small towns changing too much in the next few years.
It seems like alot of people are always requesting a walkable town with shops, restaurants/cafe's, bars, etc. With all the hype about it, I think towns around the area would start considering about expanding their downtowns. I know Apex was mentioned as slowly growing, but not much about other downtowns. Why are the towns so sleepy if everyone is requesting more?
Am I missing anything that is more happening, even in Chapel Hill, Durham or anywhere else nearby? I think that if downtowns would grow, they would prosper. I like the idea of a hip historical downtown with lots to do. Things that stay open past 9PM as well.
Downtown Raleigh and downtown Durham both offer the kind of lifestyle you're describing. It helps that in the latter there is plenty of onetime manufacturing space that stood vacant for 10-15 years, able to be rehabbed into shopping and the like.
From the house we're renovating on Gloria Ave., we're a four minute walk to the edge of downtown and then can get to the rest of the urban core in a few minutes by foot or take the free downtown circulator bus.
In walking distance we've got a Whole Foods, a gourmet foods store (with a second one slated to come soon), a dozen or so bars, even more restaurants, a jewelry store, a used CD store, an antiques store, an antique books store, an independent bookstore, about a half-dozen clothing stores, an upscale hair salon, a pharmacy, a video store, a bagel shop, numerous places to get coffee. And: an Amtrak station, the main transit station, the Bulls ballpark, the Carolina Theatre, and DPAC.
Needless to say, this is why we're investing money in rehabbing a house and the dominant reason we're moving where we are. That, and being able to grab a third of an acre so close to the center of the city!
Not sure I agree totally with Mike on eminent domain being the big issue with downtowns expanding. If a downtown is thriving, the property owners near it will eventually have an incentive to sell for larger commercial development, particularly if it's rental property. Ironically, residents of neighborhoods will push hard for property rights restrictions in the form of zoning to prevent density from arriving. OTOH, I see every bit as much need for zoning as a restriction on private property rights as I do eminent domain -- both protect the needs of the community.
Downtown Raleigh and downtown Durham both offer the kind of lifestyle you're describing. It helps that in the latter there is plenty of onetime manufacturing space that stood vacant for 10-15 years, able to be rehabbed into shopping and the like.
From the house we're renovating on Gloria Ave., we're a four minute walk to the edge of downtown and then can get to the rest of the urban core in a few minutes by foot or take the free downtown circulator bus.
In walking distance we've got a Whole Foods, a gourmet foods store (with a second one slated to come soon), a dozen or so bars, even more restaurants, a jewelry store, a used CD store, an antiques store, an antique books store, an independent bookstore, about a half-dozen clothing stores, an upscale hair salon, a pharmacy, a video store, a bagel shop, numerous places to get coffee. And: an Amtrak station, the main transit station, the Bulls ballpark, the Carolina Theatre, and DPAC.
Needless to say, this is why we're investing money in rehabbing a house and the dominant reason we're moving where we are. That, and being able to grab a third of an acre so close to the center of the city!
Not sure I agree totally with Mike on eminent domain being the big issue with downtowns expanding. If a downtown is thriving, the property owners near it will eventually have an incentive to sell for larger commercial development, particularly if it's rental property. Ironically, residents of neighborhoods will push hard for property rights restrictions in the form of zoning to prevent density from arriving. OTOH, I see every bit as much need for zoning as a restriction on private property rights as I do eminent domain -- both protect the needs of the community.
BCR,
I don't particularly think eminent domain is "...the big issue with downtowns expanding." The point was a response to Becky's question why towns aren't more aggressive.
The conversation in Cary, IIRC, revolved around aggressively taking existing business locations, including rezoning without grandfathering existing uses, and some pretty blatant abuse of owners' property rights.
If I missed the point, and there is a sense of opportunity for private enterprise to increase presence of nightclubs, to stay open past bedtime ( ), and to profit from the demand for those establishments, I am sure entrepreneurs will grab the opportunity if it appears to be broadly financially rewarding.
Planning vs. property rights can be an issue. Cary and Raleigh in particular have embraced and encouraged a sprawling expansion model, rather than a density model.
I wonder how hard it would be to acquire a few acres in downtown Cary and construct a 12 story condo building with easy access to local shops and services, and the train station. I'm guessing pretty difficult.
And, of course, it is impossible to spend today's tax dollar to create historic districts today. Good Planning and zoning with sensitivity to owners' rights can help encourage long term viability and historic reverence for generations of the future.
Cary has the downtown of a town of 4,000 to 7,000 people, since modern commercial and activity centers built, and being built, during growth are scattered throughout the town's footprint. DT Cary never really receded in local importance as Raleigh's DT did, so redevelopment is somewhat moot. Increases in construction of housing options and density in DT Raleigh are understandable, vs. trying to engineer Cary into something it never was, and will have a difficult time becoming.
I'm one of the folks that don't favor the concept of a "downtown" for most smaller cities. For those larger municipalities that can sustain a thriving business core, a downtown can make sense. (And notice I said "business." The retail/consumer stuff is just an add-on.) But I just don't see the need for (or economies of scale to sustain) a "downtown" in smaller cities. I cringe every time I hear someone in Chapel Hill (esp. the Town Council) refer to one small non-central section of the city as "downtown." Chapel Hill has multiple business districts and retail areas - no one of them outshines the others to such a degree as to be crowned "downtown" in my view.
You (BullCityRising) are right. However, the OP was asking about towns, not cities.
Towns are a different animal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull City Rising
Downtown Raleigh and downtown Durham both offer the kind of lifestyle you're describing. It helps that in the latter there is plenty of onetime manufacturing space that stood vacant for 10-15 years, able to be rehabbed into shopping and the like.
From the house we're renovating on Gloria Ave., we're a four minute walk to the edge of downtown and then can get to the rest of the urban core in a few minutes by foot or take the free downtown circulator bus.
In walking distance we've got a Whole Foods, a gourmet foods store (with a second one slated to come soon), a dozen or so bars, even more restaurants, a jewelry store, a used CD store, an antiques store, an antique books store, an independent bookstore, about a half-dozen clothing stores, an upscale hair salon, a pharmacy, a video store, a bagel shop, numerous places to get coffee. And: an Amtrak station, the main transit station, the Bulls ballpark, the Carolina Theatre, and DPAC.
Needless to say, this is why we're investing money in rehabbing a house and the dominant reason we're moving where we are. That, and being able to grab a third of an acre so close to the center of the city!
Not sure I agree totally with Mike on eminent domain being the big issue with downtowns expanding. If a downtown is thriving, the property owners near it will eventually have an incentive to sell for larger commercial development, particularly if it's rental property. Ironically, residents of neighborhoods will push hard for property rights restrictions in the form of zoning to prevent density from arriving. OTOH, I see every bit as much need for zoning as a restriction on private property rights as I do eminent domain -- both protect the needs of the community.
Mike is on the right track. Towns can't just build things, other than municipal buildings. Morrisville has struggled with this for some time and has done a massive planning and rezoning project (which has won at least one urban planning award IIRC) to try to create a walkable downtown area where there is nothing now. It greases the skids, but until some people want to commit money to develop some buildings, the plan is just sitting there. This was also made easier by the fact that most of the land that was rezoned was currently residential that has seen better days and this rezoning would almost certainly increase the property values long term. If it had not, it would have been much harder, like Cary's try.
Personally, I think Cary is ripe for some development. There is already some decently dense single family homes around the downtown area. I think a nice condo/mixed use development or two would do really nicely in the downtown core area. None of the auto shops look really bad, IMO and would not detract at all from that type of use. In fact, if things got going, some of them would get phased out anyway as the land prices would make them want to sell. Then again, I would love to see someone propose bulding a 5 or 6 story building in downtown Cary, then we can see if the council is really wanting redevelopment.
Mike is on the right track. Towns can't just build things, other than municipal buildings. Morrisville has struggled with this for some time and has done a massive planning and rezoning project (which has won at least one urban planning award IIRC) to try to create a walkable downtown area where there is nothing now. It greases the skids, but until some people want to commit money to develop some buildings, the plan is just sitting there. This was also made easier by the fact that most of the land that was rezoned was currently residential that has seen better days and this rezoning would almost certainly increase the property values long term. If it had not, it would have been much harder, like Cary's try.
Personally, I think Cary is ripe for some development. There is already some decently dense single family homes around the downtown area. I think a nice condo/mixed use development or two would do really nicely in the downtown core area. None of the auto shops look really bad, IMO and would not detract at all from that type of use. In fact, if things got going, some of them would get phased out anyway as the land prices would make them want to sell. Then again, I would love to see someone propose bulding a 5 or 6 story building in downtown Cary, then we can see if the council is really wanting redevelopment.
Right-O.
As Raleigh is seeing, downtown residents will make a town more vibrant than trying to create a destination without a population base.
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Things that stay open past 9PM as well.
), and to profit from the demand for those establishments, I am sure entrepreneurs will grab the opportunity if it appears to be broadly financially rewarding.
