U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina > Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary
 [Register]
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary The Triangle Area
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 01-12-2012, 12:58 PM
 
182 posts, read 189,919 times
Reputation: 203

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by theS5 View Post
Please explain why its better to move kids all over the district when the end result is getting a bunch of average schools (overall grade/assessment testing) versus having some outstanding schools and some below average ones? Aren't we just masking the problem by diluting?
the result is not "a bunch of average schools" and the problem is not "masked"

 
Old 01-12-2012, 01:02 PM
 
731 posts, read 482,665 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
That's the point - busing was the reality. Are you asking to compare improvements (if any) against what would have been had their been no busing? I'm not sure what you're looking to measure, or how you're proposing to measure it.
I'm merely stating the "reality" of busing failed to increase academic performance and something new was needed. However so many people wanted the "new" to fail before even giving it a chance based purely on politics instead of their claimed "for the children". If the "new" system continues to fail the low income students I will criticize it as well, however I also expect to see every protestor and protest group that has been against the new plan start showing up at the low-income schools and put their time and money where their mouth is.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 01:04 PM
 
182 posts, read 189,919 times
Reputation: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad View Post
I'm merely stating the "reality" of busing failed to increase academic performance and something new was needed. However so many people wanted the "new" to fail before even giving it a chance based purely on politics instead of their claimed "for the children". If the "new" system continues to fail the low income students I will criticize it as well, however I also expect to see every protestor and protest group that has been against the new plan start showing up at the low-income schools and put their time and money where their mouth is.
huh? you want me to volunteer to solve a problem you want and I'm trying to stop?

you lost me there
 
Old 01-12-2012, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
8,452 posts, read 12,389,597 times
Reputation: 7481
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad View Post
I'm merely stating the "reality" of busing failed to increase academic performance.
I guess I would formulate your statement a bit differently - as I don't see how we can ever know whether a particular model did or did not deliver "improvement," because we don't know what the baseline would have been in the absence of busing. I do think one could argue that busing failed to deliver an adequate level of academic performance - which measures against an absolute standard rather than as a relative comparison to some other (potentially imaginary) results.

P.S. As you read my replies, keep in mind that I'm one of those souls who voted with their feet and left Wake County in large part to escape the school situation. We were one of the unlucky families trapped in the reassignment maze.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Holly Springs
3,526 posts, read 5,949,251 times
Reputation: 2324
IMO, reading and studying are virtually free, and a choice anyone can make to pursue. The core curriculum across WCPSS is the same is it not? Individual effort, accountability, and certainly genetics are far more important than where you attend public school.

Last edited by sacredgrooves; 01-12-2012 at 02:18 PM..
 
Old 01-12-2012, 02:03 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 9,502,015 times
Reputation: 18534
FYI: We've gone from a very narrow opening post to (again) a very general discussion of Wake County School issues. In light of that, I've retitled the thread to reflect the current conversation.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
1,640 posts, read 3,392,510 times
Reputation: 2521
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
These conversations always turn ugly and banal when limitations are placed on others perspectives gratuitously.

Yes, there is an element that is less than admirable on each "side.' That would include those who would cavalierly bury kids in distant higher performing schools to mask poor academic performance and protect a cherished theory, as well as those who have repugnant racial or socio-economic views.

I would propose that assigning either of those perspectives across the board does not advance conversation.
Mike, I genuinely believe it is about more than burying. If that's all it was, no objection here.

The main problem I see with high-poverty schools is (a) lack of PTA and volunteer resources, and (b) the good teachers don't go there. Period.

They didn't make the movie "Stand and Deliver" because it's common to have a dedicated, brilliant math teacher turn around a forgotten inner city school. Teachers go where they feel the reward of making a difference, and high poverty schools ain't it.

Similarly, private schools in my experience pay less than public schools, but teachers sometimes clamor to teach there. It's not the money, it's the experience.

You "can" have high-performing, high poverty schools. And the fact that people right feature stories about individual examples (like the Ky. school referenced earlier) is kind of a sign that you don't find Edward James Olmos in every high school.

Or, to use a local data source: search for "job fair" teacher in the Advanced Search box, restricted to this forum. Notice how much interest there is in Wake and CH-C job fairs. (Add subsearch terms if you like.) Now, go back and look for Durham job fairs referenced similarly. Far less interest... far less posts... questions about them unanswered (outside, perhaps, PM.)
 
Old 01-12-2012, 03:28 PM
 
1,832 posts, read 3,038,763 times
Reputation: 1080
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacredgrooves View Post
IMO, reading and studying are virtually free, and a choice anyone can make to pursue. The core curriculum across WCPSS is the same is it not? Individual effort, accountability, and certainly genetics are far more important than where you attend public school.
Yeah, on the surface of it, you're right. But one the one hand, these are KIDS were are talking about, and the individual effort and accountability really rests in their PARENTS hands--and yet kids don't get to pick their parents. So they get what they get, which is sometimes people who are always working, maybe don't value education, etc. Kids in high-poverty communities tend not to have the advantage of parents with an education, time, and/or ability to teach their kids that school matters and to instill a work ethic.

On the other hand, schools (as another poster mentioned) don't exist on their own--high-income parents contribute funds that in turn provide lots of great special programs that can help the kids--and I don't mean just academic programs. There are other programs that can help boost a kids' sense of self-worth, and enjoyment at school that will make them want to value school. Maybe give them that work ethic they're not going to get at home. I think the idea behind busing was to put kids from high-poverty areas into school environments that have a lot of kids whose parents are deeply invested in their education, and that have strong PTAs supporting activities that the state, especially in a crappy economy, cannot provide. I don't know if it is the right thing to do, but I also don't think it was designed to dilute poor test scores throughout the system.

The reality is that some people just don't, can't, or won't invest themselves in their childrens' education. Often, those people will be found in larger numbers at low-income areas and schools because they themselves tend not to be educated. They can't give the kids what they themselves don't have. That may not be politically correct, but it is what it is.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Status: "Apple Pie!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
19,560 posts, read 30,982,095 times
Reputation: 16566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull City Rising View Post
Mike, I genuinely believe it is about more than burying. If that's all it was, no objection here.

The main problem I see with high-poverty schools is (a) lack of PTA and volunteer resources, and (b) the good teachers don't go there. Period.

They didn't make the movie "Stand and Deliver" because it's common to have a dedicated, brilliant math teacher turn around a forgotten inner city school. Teachers go where they feel the reward of making a difference, and high poverty schools ain't it.

Similarly, private schools in my experience pay less than public schools, but teachers sometimes clamor to teach there. It's not the money, it's the experience.

You "can" have high-performing, high poverty schools. And the fact that people right feature stories about individual examples (like the Ky. school referenced earlier) is kind of a sign that you don't find Edward James Olmos in every high school.

Or, to use a local data source: search for "job fair" teacher in the Advanced Search box, restricted to this forum. Notice how much interest there is in Wake and CH-C job fairs. (Add subsearch terms if you like.) Now, go back and look for Durham job fairs referenced similarly. Far less interest... far less posts... questions about them unanswered (outside, perhaps, PM.)
BCR,
It will just take more, probably much more, dedication of resources to support schools with high poverty demographics than it does to export a few busloads of kids, including compensation and staffing in schools with higher likelihood of failure.
Just a fact.

Poverty imposes dreadful handicaps on a family structure or neighborhood, yet we cannot possibly create a system wherein all the class demographics are the same, with identical F&R in all the schools.
So who takes the hit? And who decides that a kid goes to a 70% F&R school or rides the bus to a 30% F&R school?

How is either approach made reasonably acceptable?
We haven't been able to dredge up stats that say WCPSS was successful with bussing.
And, frankly, as a Cary taxpayer, I would be opposed to a Cary bond issue to buy or build schools just to be local. Fact is, we have a system that will have to be massaged. Sticking schools anywhere we could find 25 acres has confirmed that.

It just isn't sensible or sustainable for the scenario my neighbor had a couple of years ago, with a high schooler on traditional schedule, a middle schooler going year round, but on a different track than her elementary kid.
To get the ES kid to a traditional school, she was offered the choice of putting a 40 pound 1st grader on a bus to Joyner. Nothing against the school, but a 19 mile bus ride for a first grader?
So she lived with the continuous scheduling stuff, and then Margiotta got the kid back on track with his brother. He scored a big point there, if only by contributing to an orderly household situation.

I am 100% sure I don't have all the answers.
It won't be neighborhood schools. The die is cast against that.

And, I have no kids. So, my only dog in the fight is my observation of the disaster I see wherein the best 4 year graduation rates in Wake are only in the low 90% range, and some demographic groups' numbers as low as 50%--60%.
Not nearly acceptable to compete in a global economy.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 04:24 PM
 
2,298 posts, read 1,865,873 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotriley View Post
Because no one wants to go to (or have their child attend) a below average school (or at least anyone who cares about education). I think the people who are so against bussing are the ones like a friend of mine who lives in West Cary and complained about the 1 busload of SE Raleigh Kids that came to her school. She was not at all concerned about the length of their bus ride, or whether or not they were getting the academic help they needed, or that their parents couldn't be as involved because of the distance, all she cared about was that they were in her school and had "disrupting" behavior. Needless to say, the parents complained and the 1 busload of kids that went there, were moved to another school.

You all can say you are concerned about the kids getting the help they need, but really I think you just don't want them in your schools.
Pilot, thanks for categorizing me as a racist. Geez, one post on a message board led you to that conclusion...amusing.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top