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I didn't claim that CV was more central to all of DT but it is more convenient to Glenwood South which is an actual DT neighborhood and not a DT adjacent neighborhood like Mordecai. From my condo in Glenwood South, I do walk to Cameron Village all the time for lunch and light shopping. For me, it's a longer walk for me to go to The Market. ...yet The Market gets billed as being "downtown". Also, I never said that The Market was a "bad location". I went back and re-read my OP to make sure that I didn't say such a thing.
My point is that The Market location is like Cameron Village in that it borders a DT adjacent neighborhood. Cameron Park borders DT on the west side of DT like Mordecai borders DT on the north and Oakwood borders DT on the east. None of these neighborhoods are served by the RLine. What's the difference?
I am not saying that it's a bad thing for The Market to expand into a grocer. I think it's great. But it's not Raleigh's answer for a DT grocer in the same way that CV isn't either. The Market will serve primarily a DT adjacent market and the NE corner of the actual DT boundary.
My point is that neither CV nor The Market are the DT grocer answer that's viable for all five DT districts.
.....hence this discussion.
My response was to several of the comments by various posters, including but not limited to you. I believe in the second post the person said it was a "bad" location.
I don't disagree that it would be great to have a nice grocery store in the middle of downtown, but lets face it, where would one go on Glenwood or Fayetteville Street (without being cost prohibitive to the investor)? The warehouse district does look promising, but you are once again setting things up so it isn't exactly close to everyone (though the R-Line would provide ease of access). I think there is a reason we keep seeing grocers pop up on the fringe of downtown and not actually within the core. Reasons being price per sq/ft and parking. Also, many large scale grocers tend to do greenfield (new) development vs. Infill of existing development. The exception is Trader Joes, but I doubt they will open a location downtown since they opened one on Wake Forest Rd. by 440.
Ultimately, I think some people are misunderstanding what The Market is going to be. I think the Kickstarter video is a little misleading as this is not going to be a big grocery store that will serve everyones retail grocery needs. It is going to be a much smaller operation with a focus on local foods ect. I think this project will do very well at the location and I am thrilled to see an infill project in this long vacant space. In the end, it is going to take people with much deeper pockets than the two guys behind the Market to bring a chain grocery store to serve the day to day grocer needs of the greater downtown Raleigh population.
I don't disagree that it would be great to have a nice grocery store in the middle of downtown, but lets face it, where would one go on Glenwood or Fayetteville Street (without being cost prohibitive to the investor)?
The most logical place for a grocer in Glenwood South is the area that I previously mentioned: between West and Harrington to the north of The West condos. This area inclusive of the adjacent parcels across Harrington to the east is a very logical choice for significant retail/mixed use development that could be anchored by a substantial grocery store. Currently the RLine comes into that area via West from Peace before turning onto Tucker toward Glenwood.
From a cost perspective, the land can be maximized for a stand alone store by stacking parking on top of it. This is how the Miami Beach Fresh Market is built. If Fresh Market can make it work from a cost perspective in South Beach two blocks from a marina, a grocer can make it work in DT Raleigh. http://www.miamibeach411.com/ee/imag...ront-Store.JPG
I don't disagree that it would be great to have a nice grocery store in the middle of downtown, but lets face it, where would one go on Glenwood or Fayetteville Street (without being cost prohibitive to the investor)?
The most logical place for a grocer in Glenwood South is the area that I previously mentioned: between West and Harrington to the north of The West condos. This area inclusive of the adjacent parcels across Harrington to the east is a very logical choice for significant retail/mixed use development that could be anchored by a substantial grocery store. Currently the RLine comes into that area via West from Peace before turning onto Tucker toward Glenwood.
From a cost perspective, the land can be maximized for a stand alone store by stacking parking on top of it. This is how the Miami Beach Fresh Market is built. If Fresh Market can make it work from a cost perspective in South Beach (two blocks from a marina) it can make it work in DT Raleigh. I agree that it would be almost impossible to justify it on Fayetteville St or in the stronger commercial districts but it's not unreasonable to imagine a successful model in one of the more mixed used areas of DT like Glenwood South or the Warehouse district. http://www.miamibeach411.com/ee/imag...ront-Store.JPG
If I were a developer with deep pockets, I sure as heck would be scoping out and assembling parcels for a significant urban retail complex in Glenwood South to support the ever increasing number of residents and visitors in the area.
There should be more models like Skyhouse where the developers were offering free rent to any grocer that came in.
Independent grocers are hesitant to come into downtown due to the costs of doing business. And chain grocers have a density of residents they have to meet before opening up a store.
Now maybe if we CD posters could crowdfund a grocery store ourselves .....
Regarding the density of residents comment, here's the existing and and under-construction multifamily housing within short walking distance to the West/Harrington corridor in Glenwood South:
West Condominium
The Quorum Condominium
The Paramount Condominium
222 Glenwood Condominium
510 Glenwood Condominium
The Cotton Mill Condominium
St. Mary's Square Apartments
712 Tucker Apartments
425 Boylan Apartments
The list above doesn't even include the proposed Link project at Powerhouse Square or the "Gramercy" project at Glenwood Ave and North Street. It also doesn't include the current senior housing tower on Glenwood and Johnson.
The most logical place for a grocer in Glenwood South is the area that I previously mentioned: between West and Harrington to the north of The West condos. This area inclusive of the adjacent parcels across Harrington to the east is a very logical choice for significant retail/mixed use development......
From a cost perspective, the land can be maximized for a stand alone store by stacking parking on top of it. This is how the Miami Beach Fresh Market is built. If Fresh Market can make it work from a cost perspective in South Beach (two blocks from a marina) it can make it work in DT Raleigh.
I know the area you are talking about (West/Harrington) but can't picture in my head what is there right now. It isn't vacant lots is it. I mean I seem to recall something there already (maybe just parking lot). Even so, that land may not truly be "available" for development. I agree it would be a good spot!
I agree that if Fresh Market could make it work in South Beach they might be able to figure out a way for it to be cost effective in Raleigh. Then again the cost is weighed against the expected revenue and I have to think that a south beach location will see business an order of magnitude (or two) greater than the same business in Raleigh. The revenue side has to come into account at some point. I do agree that downtown is adding more people every day. Lots of apartment / condos projects going on!
I know the area you are talking about (West/Harrington) but can't picture in my head what is there right now. It isn't vacant lots is it. I mean I seem to recall something there already (maybe just parking lot). Even so, that land may not truly be "available" for development. I agree it would be a good spot!
I agree that if Fresh Market could make it work in South Beach they might be able to figure out a way for it to be cost effective in Raleigh. Then again the cost is weighed against the expected revenue and I have to think that a south beach location will see business an order of magnitude (or two) greater than the same business in Raleigh. The revenue side has to come into account at some point. I do agree that downtown is adding more people every day. Lots of apartment / condos projects going on!
The land corridor @ West and Harrington is mostly under utilized and ripe for redevelopment and I would hope that there is something happening in that regard behind the scenes. I am just not aware of any details. It's also important to remember that the new Capital & Peace intersection will change traffic patterns by funneling southbound Capital to Peace St. traffic through this area via a long square-looped exit. This work will raise several buildings including Finch's Diner :-( . However much I am actually opposed to this new interchange, that ship has sailed and I'd rather look at how to "make lemonade". This opens up the eastern side of Glenwood South to traffic and highlights its development potential. Other than the West condominium, there isn't a great deal of anything significant that can't be relocated, especially for the properties along Peace Street. The biggest challenge is that there are some low rise state & county buildings in the area. For me, it's all fair game for future redevelopment in the area north of the West Condo, east West St., south of Peace Street and west of Capital Boulevard.
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