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Old 05-09-2014, 09:16 PM
 
621 posts, read 791,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post
Nope. I completely disagree. The US is full of people who are well qualified.
Assuming you are right, in my line of work, these people appear to have one other qualification: keeping themselves invisible.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:23 PM
 
Location: My House
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Quote:
Originally Posted by local2rtp View Post
Assuming you are right, in my line of work, these people appear to have one other qualification: keeping themselves invisible.
I have to ask what you do for a living.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post
I have to ask what you do for a living.
IT. With extensive experience recruiting contractors and employees across various levels/ industries/ geographic markets/ skill sets. I have never had the good fortune of hiring someone because he/ she is cheaper. I barely see any American names in the stack of resumes I tend to wade through, leave alone having someone shortlisted for an interview. I trust you wouldn't say it is the wage differential since that has minimal to no bearing at the resume submission stage.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:04 PM
 
Location: My House
33,234 posts, read 27,009,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by local2rtp View Post
IT. With extensive experience recruiting contractors and employees across various levels/ industries/ geographic markets/ skill sets. I have never had the good fortune of hiring someone because he/ she is cheaper. I barely see any American names in the stack of resumes I tend to wade through, leave alone having someone shortlisted for an interview. I trust you wouldn't say it is the wage differential since that has minimal to no bearing at the resume submission stage.
I guess all the people with English names have good jobs and aren't looking?

I am unsure why freelance headhunters? (A guess) cannot find more people with "American names" for IT positions. I think that the implication that people of European descent aren't very intelligent or capable of performing in IT is fairly hilarious, since I know so many people who have very successful IT careers of one sort or another.

Perhaps there are more people with foreign-sounding names that are interested in IT and looking for jobs at the moment, but I honestly cannot imagine that this is because high schools here are graduating stupid kids because, let's face it, there are a ton of kids around here that don't have "American names"... my own included.
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Last edited by RedZin; 05-10-2014 at 12:12 AM..
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Old 05-09-2014, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Cary, NC
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I guess I should be grateful that my Amerucan child has an Indian last name however, name bias is very real. my grandson is part hispanic and they intentionally chose not to give him an hispanic sounding family name.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:10 AM
 
Location: My House
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Originally Posted by lamishra View Post
I guess I should be grateful that my Amerucan child has an Indian last name however, name bias is very real. my grandson is part hispanic and they intentionally chose not to give him an hispanic sounding family name.
Mine have Mandarin names. People assume they are smarter and harder working than kids with European names. The down side (which is no doubt similar for your daughter) is that people hold these kids to a higher standard without realizing that they are doing it.

It's a shame, the name bias. Intelligence has little to do with ethnicity. It is more a nature/nurture combo.
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by local2rtp View Post
IT. With extensive experience recruiting contractors and employees across various levels/ industries/ geographic markets/ skill sets. I have never had the good fortune of hiring someone because he/ she is cheaper. I barely see any American names in the stack of resumes I tend to wade through, leave alone having someone shortlisted for an interview. I trust you wouldn't say it is the wage differential since that has minimal to no bearing at the resume submission stage.

Something's fishy here. If that were true, it would have to mean that folks with American names who were working in IT were rare or had simply been in their current position longer than you've been in the recruiting business and thus aren't changing jobs often enough for you to see their resumes. Anyone who has worked in this area or other nearby markets would have trouble believing your statement as written just by spending one day in pretty much any local IT department, where non-American surnames are certainly not the majority.

The only other possibilities I can think of is that you're not identifying American surnames when you see them, or perhaps there is something about the company you work for that is only attracting resumes from a certain demographic.

I'm not a recruiter but in the role of hiring manager at times, I've done a lot of recruiting for IT positions all over the east coast including the triangle, and while I inevitably get spammed by plenty of folks so out of touch they didn't even read the job requirements, to say I barely see any American names in the resume would be ridiculous.

I would also say that there are a lot of folks I know that I would never send my resume to a company that omitted salary range from the job ad, and most of the qualified people I know probably wouldn't either, so I'm not sure how a supposedly professional recruiter could say something like wage differential has no bearing at resume submission stage.

Something is just not right there.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:35 AM
 
621 posts, read 791,100 times
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It is powerfully self-serving and seductive to succumb to the belief that H1s are cheaper. Without the experiences I have had, I confess I too would have subscribed to that notion. H1s can be cheaper to the intermediary/ body shopping/ contracting firms. But I believe the end clients i.e., the enterprises paying for these H1 provided services, see neither a windfall nor any discernible savings.

In every instance where I have participated in hiring an H1 contractor, he/ she has been more expensive than an American employee. If an American IT employee is making $130K ($100K wages + $30K cost of benefits), you can bet your bottom dollar the equivalent H1 resource brought onboard as a contractor is being billed at around $160K (2080 hr * $80/ hr) or more. Tack on FLSA non-exempt and comp time factors, and pretty soon, assuming there is steady work, anyone managing a project budget will see that it can be cheaper to use a local employee than an immigrant contractor on H1. I have managed multiple projects wherein I had to pay far closer attention to the cost of an immigrant H1 contractor than to the cost of an American employee. Keep in mind that most H1s end up as contractors and those that you think are cheap H1s can be on L1s.

The above should debunk the myth that H1s are cheaper. If you shift from the "H1 as a contractor" to the "H1 as an employee" scenario, I am willing to bet that the companies going this route comply with Federal protections mandating that H1 employees be paid the prevailing wage besides having to incur $1000s additional costs on immigration procedures. I would expect, except in the case of those violating the law, these procedures ensure wage competitiveness.

The advantage to the employer of having an H1 employee over an American employee is not the cost differential but the legally enforced commitment to the employer since the H1 is tied to a particular employer. Knowing an H1 has higher barriers to exit than a local is an advantage (and a disadvantage) to the H1 person. But this unintended consequence of the immigration law has nothing to do with your argument about one set of workers being cheaper than another unless you are suggesting the rate of attrition amongst American employees in well paid jobs is high.

There are inherent contradictions in what you post. For example, how can one state that H1s are cheaper (and imply that costlier Americans are overlooked) while in the same breath suggest that these Americans are already in well paid jobs. Bottomline, I can see that people on opposite sides of this issue could go back and forth until they have a different set of experiences necessitating revisions to their views. Speaking for myself, unless someone presents specific financials, I can't see my views being altered.

Regarding the digression into name bias, I used that label for convenience but who could have guessed it would provide fodder for a digression. The phrase "US is full of people who are well qualified" renders this discussion infructuous since it includes H1s already in the country. One would need to be explicit or use a label that conveys the message. I would rather take flak for using the colloquial term "American name" than get into an even more prolonged discussion on the various immigrant and non-immigrant categories and who should be dropped into the cheaper/ costlier bucket.

Not politically correct am sure, but I will not deny that when scanning resumes certain names to me indicate a higher probability that the person is American while other names indicate the probability the person is from overseas. Then there are names you wouldn't know one way or the other. But, the melting pot that is the USA, and especially as the demographics alter, you wouldn't know better anyway unless you go through the work history and education. And even then you can't be sure at times. However,the key concern here appears to be hiring bias injected by consideration of names. I would imagine that to one susceptible to the practice of discriminating, it is no more likely to inject bias than say religion, ethnicity, dress code, etc.

Apologies to the OP for derailing the discussion.

Last edited by RedZin; 05-10-2014 at 08:08 AM.. Reason: DM me if questions.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:10 AM
 
621 posts, read 791,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdocstr View Post
Something's fishy here. If that were true, it would have to mean that folks with American names who were working in IT were rare or had simply been in their current position longer than you've been in the recruiting business and thus aren't changing jobs often enough for you to see their resumes. Anyone who has worked in this area or other nearby markets would have trouble believing your statement as written just by spending one day in pretty much any local IT department, where non-American surnames are certainly not the majority.
Redzin was talking about H1s. H1s are less on the business side of IT and more on the technology side of IT. Keeping that in mind, if you still encounter shops with a majority of non-American surnames in the technology area, then I would say it reinforces the possibility that what I have witnessed isn't universal.

If you and Redzin are right, and believe me when I say I wish you both were right in this regard, we should not be sweating that much over outsourcing or the unemployment rate. But reality is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdocstr View Post
I'm not a recruiter but in the role of hiring manager at times, I've done a lot of recruiting for IT positions all over the east coast including the triangle, and while I inevitably get spammed by plenty of folks so out of touch they didn't even read the job requirements, to say I barely see any American names in the resume would be ridiculous.
I can see why my statement would be viewed as ridiculous by some but, to me, it's far more ridiculous that H1s continue to be imported and quite incredulous that American names are sparse in the stack of resumes HR sends across. The anomaly becomes even more pronounced when you want to hire skills in new/ emerging technologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdocstr View Post
I would also say that there are a lot of folks I know that I would never send my resume to a company that omitted salary range from the job ad, and most of the qualified people I know probably wouldn't either, so I'm not sure how a supposedly professional recruiter could say something like wage differential has no bearing at resume submission stage.
I find that hard to believe but maybe that is a part of the problem since the people you speak of might be opting out of consideration due to absence of salary information in the job ads. The reason I find it hard to believe is that most job ads I have perused lack compensation information. Compensation is viewed as a competitive strategy in the non-government sector and I am not familiar with too many instances of that information being released into the public domain. But I will acknowledge that you and your acquaintances have different experiences albeit at variance with what leading firms in the local area are doing. I can give you myriad examples (SAS, NetApp, Quintiles, etc.) but here's one major enterprise excluding the people you know by omitting salary information: raleigh jobs at MetLife

Last edited by local2rtp; 05-10-2014 at 07:25 AM..
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:25 AM
 
Location: My House
33,234 posts, read 27,009,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by local2rtp View Post
Redzin was talking about H1s. H1s are less on the business side of IT and more on the technology side of IT. Keeping that in mind, if you still encounter shops with a majority of non-American surnames in the technology area, then I would say it reinforces the possibility that what I have witnessed isn't universal.

If you and Redzin are right, and believe me when I say I wish you both were right in this regard, we should not be sweating that much over outsourcing or the unemployment rate. But reality is different.



I can see why my statement would be viewed as ridiculous by some but, to me, it's far more ridiculous that H1s continue to be imported and quite incredulous that American names are sparse in the stack of resumes HR sends across. The anomaly becomes even more pronounced when you want to hire skills in new/ emerging technologies.



I find that hard to believe but maybe that is a part of the problem since the people you speak of might be opting out of consideration due to absence of salary information in the job ads. The reason I find it hard to believe is that most job ads I have perused lack compensation information. Compensation is viewed as a competitive strategy in the non-government sector and I am not familiar with too many instances of that information being released into the public domain. But I will acknowledge that you and your acquaintances have different experiences albeit at variance with what leading firms in the local area are doing. I can give you myriad examples (SAS, NetApp, Quintiles, etc.) but here's one major enterprise excluding the people you know by omitting salary information: raleigh jobs at MetLife
A recruiter tried to recruit my husband (European name) for a job at Metlife, then admitted they couldn't come anywhere near his salary for a position that had the same basic requirements as the job he's currently in. He told them he was not interested.

I only mention this because it's interesting that you chose them as an example.

I posted an NPR article about H1-B visas awhile back in this thread. It is a very good article. I don't think NPR has an agenda there.

I have worked in more than one IT department and my husband has worked his entire career in IT. Neither of us has encountered a department here in RTP that was even close to majority foreign workers (though the ones we've met have largely been nice, decent people).

I'm just not convinced that companies are forced due to lack of qualified applicants to hire and sponsor people on visas. If H1-B workers were not a good deal, it would make no financial sense to push for them. Perhaps it's a combo of lowest possible wage for the position plus legal indentured servitude that makes those particularly alluring. Clearly, none of us are CFOs for Fortune 500 companies who employ H1-B and if we were, it's not likely we'd explain our motives to the general public.

I did think the NPR article was very interesting, in any event.


To the OP's point: I have no issue with eliminating zeros. Learning the material is more important than the actual score if the end goal is to educate students.
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