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Old 06-19-2015, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,223 posts, read 2,905,566 times
Reputation: 2199

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Quote:
Originally Posted by underPSI View Post
Not being an expert I'm sure there is a solution. But other than that you've got nothing.

And I am still waiting to hear why you think I should pay your taxes.

Why should I have to pay for the police to catch the Charleston shooter? I'm not black, so should my taxes not pay for catching a guy who goes around massacring black lives?

I have no children. Do you think I should not have to pay taxes to go towards schools and teacher?

I don't like the Republicans running the legislature. Why should my taxes pay them money?


There is a huge societal gain from progressive taxation. The most important being upward mobility. I couldn't afford a college education but the government gave me financial aid and loans to go to school so I could become a productive member of society. If it were for people like you, a hardworking, intelligent productive member of society would be struggling and stuck in poverty.



Simplistic logic annoys me sometimes.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:03 AM
 
148 posts, read 297,199 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Except the teacher's pay is going almost all to satisfying Maslow's most basic needs (Shelter, food, etc.) so that 20% carries more importance than the billionaires 20% which is spent on getting a bigger yacht than he had last year, and upgrading his Bentley to the 2016 model so his driver doesn't have to suffer the travesty of driving an old jalopy.

I guess it is subjective as to which of those things are more important, or if they are the same. I know that I have my opionion. (Forget about the fact that the billionaire couldn't make his billiions without a workforce trained by the teacher, and likely couldn't make his billions without the assist of people working for much lower wages, and without a middle class with disposable income to buy whatever it is he is selling.)

I wish the NC GA would think about those things before all the jobs (and the billionaires) go somewhere else.
I really do get both sides of the argument, but the logic here is clearly biased against those who are wealthy.

You are correct that a billionaire likely could not be where they are at without teachers, or lower paid workers, however the opposite is also true. The billionaire pays the wages of his workers, and pays extraordinarily more taxes which pays for teachers and most of the social programs.

The top 10 percent of income earners paid 68 percent of all federal income taxes, though they earned 45 percent of all income. The bottom 50 percent paid 3 percent of income taxes, but earned 12 percent of income.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Apex NC, the Peak of Good Loving.
1,464 posts, read 1,672,462 times
Reputation: 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dp38393 View Post
The top 10 percent of income earners paid 68 percent of all federal income taxes, though they earned 45 percent of all income. The bottom 50 percent paid 3 percent of income taxes, but earned 12 percent of income.
Appreciate the numbers and such specifics bolster your argument. However, it is always desirable to identify the source of your statistics so the reader may check and possibly dig further. For instance, I'd like to know if those numbers are for state taxes or overall tax burden. Are they descriptive of North Carolina or the entire United States? This thread deals with controversial actions of North Carolina legislators.

.
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:33 AM
 
413 posts, read 935,560 times
Reputation: 540
I don't know why Drivers Ed was ever subsidized by the schools. As a parent of 3, it's my responsibility to teach them to drive and/or pay for the training. I also don't think there will be more accidents involving 18yo than there are now with the supposedly well trained drivers of 16-17yo. I can count about 25 accidents involving young teen drivers in just my little circle of life. None were my sons. I had a deal with my teen drivers: we will pay half your car insurance but if you have ticket or accident of your fault and rates rise, we won't pay any. This made my teens pay closer attention when driving.

I am not even convinced that it's a necessity for 16yo to drive. If a family can't afford the $400 for Drivers Ed, how can they afford a spare vehicle with gas plus car insurance?
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:51 AM
 
Location: My House
33,421 posts, read 27,275,180 times
Reputation: 24702
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalicoskiesNC View Post
I don't know why Drivers Ed was ever subsidized by the schools. As a parent of 3, it's my responsibility to teach them to drive and/or pay for the training. I also don't think there will be more accidents involving 18yo than there are now with the supposedly well trained drivers of 16-17yo. I can count about 25 accidents involving young teen drivers in just my little circle of life. None were my sons. I had a deal with my teen drivers: we will pay half your car insurance but if you have ticket or accident of your fault and rates rise, we won't pay any. This made my teens pay closer attention when driving.

I am not even convinced that it's a necessity for 16yo to drive. If a family can't afford the $400 for Drivers Ed, how can they afford a spare vehicle with gas plus car insurance?
Many families share a vehicle or two and the new driver isn't listed as a primary driver, so while insurance does go up, it's not as big an increase in the family budget as when a more well-to-do family buys junior a new Toyota and lists him as the primary driver because they have the same number of cars as people and that new Toyota is the cheapest car they own.

We're talking families that have cars that are old and paid for, with just liability insurance. Their kids may well go find part-time jobs at 16 and be required to help pay for the insurance increase.

These are the families that'll be affected by a 400-dollar tab to get their kids a slip of paper that says they passed a driver's ed course.

If they cut out driver's education in schools, they need to cut out the requirement for a formal class. If a kid can pass the written driver's test at 15, they should be given a permit to drive with another licensed driver and at 16, if they can pass the driving test, they should get a license. Let their parents teach them how to drive.

It's not like driver's ed instructors are special.

I got taught in high school by one of our PE teachers, but it was a formality because my parents had already taught me.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:01 AM
 
Location: My House
33,421 posts, read 27,275,180 times
Reputation: 24702
Quote:
Originally Posted by dp38393 View Post
I really do get both sides of the argument, but the logic here is clearly biased against those who are wealthy.

You are correct that a billionaire likely could not be where they are at without teachers, or lower paid workers, however the opposite is also true. The billionaire pays the wages of his workers, and pays extraordinarily more taxes which pays for teachers and most of the social programs.

The top 10 percent of income earners paid 68 percent of all federal income taxes, though they earned 45 percent of all income. The bottom 50 percent paid 3 percent of income taxes, but earned 12 percent of income.
I'm glad someone is sticking up for the billionaires.

Seriously, though, why do we stick up for the 1%?

I often see people that I know have household incomes far beneath my own that aggressively defend the wealthiest members of society. (Not making any assumptions about your own wealth. Perhaps you're a billionaire).

What strikes me as interesting about that is the fact that the ultra-wealthy members of our society are the LAST people who need the defense of others. That's what they pay off our politicians to get. I mean, a good chunk of our politicians ARE them.

The AMT was created (on the federal level, I know) to keep the (then) wealthy from bypassing the payment of taxes. The AMT hasn't been adjusted properly the entire time it has existed and who does it hit hardest now? I bet many of the people who post here looking for a 5 bedroom 3500+ sq ft house in West Cary, Chapel Hill, etc.

That's who. And I'll bet our City-Data Triangle forum is NOT chock full of 1%ers.

I have to agree with Myghost on this one. The amount of taxes paid by the very wealthy account for pretty much no change in their way of life or access to opportunities.

This is not true of the average citizen OR the poor in our country.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Cary, NC
31,819 posts, read 55,786,960 times
Reputation: 30485
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post
I'm glad someone is sticking up for the billionaires.

Seriously, though, why do we stick up for the 1%?

I often see people that I know have household incomes far beneath my own that aggressively defend the wealthiest members of society. (Not making any assumptions about your own wealth. Perhaps you're a billionaire).

What strikes me as interesting about that is the fact that the ultra-wealthy members of our society are the LAST people who need the defense of others. That's what they pay off our politicians to get. I mean, a good chunk of our politicians ARE them.

The AMT was created (on the federal level, I know) to keep the (then) wealthy from bypassing the payment of taxes. The AMT hasn't been adjusted properly the entire time it has existed and who does it hit hardest now? I bet many of the people who post here looking for a 5 bedroom 3500+ sq ft house in West Cary, Chapel Hill, etc.

That's who. And I'll bet our City-Data Triangle forum is NOT chock full of 1%ers.

I have to agree with Myghost on this one. The amount of taxes paid by the very wealthy account for pretty much no change in their way of life or access to opportunities.

This is not true of the average citizen OR the poor in our country.

All income levels deserve equal protection under the law, ethics, and decency. If I would defend a billionaire, it would be from the position of respecting freedom and liberty. Freedom and liberty ARE self-interest, once we get past appealing to basic greed and entitlement to the fruits of others' labors.
Probably the most productive thing the nation could do would be to eliminate income taxes.

Even "populists" appeal to billionaires for money to help them gain power, while practicing class warfare to grasp or to stay in power.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:30 AM
 
148 posts, read 297,199 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielbmartin View Post
Appreciate the numbers and such specifics bolster your argument. However, it is always desirable to identify the source of your statistics so the reader may check and possibly dig further. For instance, I'd like to know if those numbers are for state taxes or overall tax burden. Are they descriptive of North Carolina or the entire United States? This thread deals with controversial actions of North Carolina legislators.

.
Sorry, I didn't realize I needed to provide my source, and I specifically mentioned that this was based on federal taxes. Regardless, my statistics are based on the available 2011 tax data, and has been compiled into reports by the Heritage Foundation. They have a number of interesting charts based on the aggregated data. Reduce the Tax Burden: Government Revenue and Tax Trends Charts

Additionally, this thread may have started out regarding the NC GA, but it is a easy transition it to a federal level. That is the largest number that matters the most to those paying taxes.
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Old 06-22-2015, 09:42 AM
 
148 posts, read 297,199 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedZin View Post
I'm glad someone is sticking up for the billionaires.

Seriously, though, why do we stick up for the 1%?

I often see people that I know have household incomes far beneath my own that aggressively defend the wealthiest members of society. (Not making any assumptions about your own wealth. Perhaps you're a billionaire).

What strikes me as interesting about that is the fact that the ultra-wealthy members of our society are the LAST people who need the defense of others. That's what they pay off our politicians to get. I mean, a good chunk of our politicians ARE them.

The AMT was created (on the federal level, I know) to keep the (then) wealthy from bypassing the payment of taxes. The AMT hasn't been adjusted properly the entire time it has existed and who does it hit hardest now? I bet many of the people who post here looking for a 5 bedroom 3500+ sq ft house in West Cary, Chapel Hill, etc.

That's who. And I'll bet our City-Data Triangle forum is NOT chock full of 1%ers.

I have to agree with Myghost on this one. The amount of taxes paid by the very wealthy account for pretty much no change in their way of life or access to opportunities.

This is not true of the average citizen OR the poor in our country.
Ha! It is funny, and I was thinking the same thing in my response. My ultimate premise was not to be in the defense of the billionaire - I simply want a system of taxation that is fair and transparent for everyone. I think everyone should pull their share with zero loopholes. As it stands now, both sides can point the to the other as getting special treatment from the current tax code. Also, I think the AMT needs serious review or repeal.

I am not callous in my stance, and believe we are likely on the same page with our ultimate views, I think it will take some initially painful moves to get us on track.

For what it is worth, I am not a member of the three comma club.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
7,968 posts, read 6,280,792 times
Reputation: 7072
there aren't many billionaires, but you don't have to be near that to be in the top 1%.
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