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Is it true that even if heated/cooled, the space has to be permitted before it can be counted towards sq ft?
Nope. That's only for tax purposes. I mean, what if you bought a house built 30 years ago and it had a finished basement and you found out later that nobody seemed to have gotten it permitted?
It's still heated square footage.
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I'm pretty sure there are basements and attics all over the country that have been finished for decades and are perfectly fine.
Now, do you want to pay top dollar for a room where someone put up drywall, added carpets, and painted without pulling a permit?
Eh. Probably not a huge deal.
It's been my observation that a good many basements and attics come pre-plumbed and wired so that drywall and flooring can be added later. I think that permits are kind of a racket in that case because... come on. It's drywall and carpet, not rewiring the place.
I have mixed opinions on the issue.
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Probably better that way as you'd pay less in taxes. Win-win for everyone .
I once owned a place that had this advantage. I rather liked it. If it passes inspection and it's an uncomplicated space, I'm just not worried. I'd rather not pay extra taxes.
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When in doubt, check it out: FAQ
I'm pretty sure there are basements and attics all over the country that have been finished for decades and are perfectly fine.
Now, do you want to pay top dollar for a room where someone put up drywall, added carpets, and painted without pulling a permit?
Eh. Probably not a huge deal.
It's been my observation that a good many basements and attics come pre-plumbed and wired so that drywall and flooring can be added later. I think that permits are kind of a racket in that case because... come on. It's drywall and carpet, not rewiring the place.
I have mixed opinions on the issue.
I have mixed opinions too, but I've opened too many walls in my own house and other houses, to find too many issues, to trust people's work. Especially the type of people that want to actively keep inspectors out of their homes. I've ignored and put off a lot of bad things myself. So I know how things can slip through the cracks. I almost electrocuted myself a few months ago due to a "I'll come back and fix that later" thing that I left alone.
Really what it comes down to (and I have first hand experience), is that inspectors are reasonable people. The permits are NOT hard to pull, and the fees aren't that high. And at the end of the day, they will help you find reasonable solutions to issues that they find.
Most importantly, un-permitted spaces are probably the number one red flag to real estate buyers. It can compromise a sale in an instant. And as a seller, the inspector is going to REALLY annoyed with you, when he gets called in and rushed into approving a 6 year old un-permitted job so that a real estate deal can close.
Ask me how I know about all of this ... mistakes have been made.
Nope. That's only for tax purposes. I mean, what if you bought a house built 30 years ago and it had a finished basement and you found out later that nobody seemed to have gotten it permitted?
It's still heated square footage.
What I meant was if it's not permitted, it shouldn't be counted and marketed in MLS as sq footage, therefore increasing $/sq ft on sale price of house right? Otherwise what is the real benefit of permitting, when one can leave it unpermitted, save on property tax, and still count towards $/sq ft on sale price? And buyer would just assume space was permitted since it was counted in MLS sq ft unless buyer was smart enough to go pull permit records.
Which leads to an odd situation with my FIL's home. When he purchased it, the MLS/listing agent had the basement sq ft counted, whereas Wake County records did not. Hence he was paying lower property taxes. But during this year's Wake County assessment update, the county simply updated their records with the exact sq footage as in the MLS, and now he is paying higher property tax.
Is this normal business practice? That Wake County just takes MLS sq ft without verifying the #s? And without verifying if the space is actually permitted or not?
What I meant was if it's not permitted, it shouldn't be counted and marketed in MLS as sq footage, therefore increasing $/sq ft on sale price of house right? Otherwise what is the real benefit of permitting, when one can leave it unpermitted, save on property tax, and still count towards $/sq ft on sale price? And buyer would just assume space was permitted since it was counted in MLS sq ft unless buyer was smart enough to go pull permit records.
Which leads to an odd situation with my FIL's home. When he purchased it, the MLS/listing agent had the basement sq ft counted, whereas Wake County records did not. Hence he was paying lower property taxes. But during this year's Wake County assessment update, the county simply updated their records with the exact sq footage as in the MLS, and now he is paying higher property tax.
Is this normal business practice? That Wake County just takes MLS sq ft without verifying the #s? And without verifying if the space is actually permitted or not?
I found out via this forum that RE agents aren't even responsible to verify the MLS specs, and aren't held accountable for their, shall we say, "inaccuracies".
I just, I mean, I can't even...wrap my head around that tidbit of knowledge.
What I meant was if it's not permitted, it shouldn't be counted and marketed in MLS as sq footage, therefore increasing $/sq ft on sale price of house right? Otherwise what is the real benefit of permitting, when one can leave it unpermitted, save on property tax, and still count towards $/sq ft on sale price? And buyer would just assume space was permitted since it was counted in MLS sq ft unless buyer was smart enough to go pull permit records.
Which leads to an odd situation with my FIL's home. When he purchased it, the MLS/listing agent had the basement sq ft counted, whereas Wake County records did not. Hence he was paying lower property taxes. But during this year's Wake County assessment update, the county simply updated their records with the exact sq footage as in the MLS, and now he is paying higher property tax.
Is this normal business practice? That Wake County just takes MLS sq ft without verifying the #s? And without verifying if the space is actually permitted or not?
Of course, all square footage of finished living area is counted in total square footage.
The fact that an area is unpermitted does not make it disappear, or preclude the owner from using it or selling it.
But it has to be identified as unpermitted, if that status is known by the agent. A seller who doesn't want to disclose can choose "No Representation" on the NC Residential Property Disclosure in answer to the question.
And, a seller who knows that an area is unpermitted takes on significant liability if they lie about it.
The Triangle MLS rules are in compliance with the NC Real Estate Commission rules regarding measurement and mention of unpermitted space.
We count it as square footage. We notify in the Public Remarks the area and square footage that are unpermitted.
And, the parties to any transaction negotiate and agree on a value for that space at contract and during Due Diligence.
From the NC Real Estate Commission booklet, "Residential Square Footage Guidelines."
"The square footage of unpermitted additions or improvements must be separately identified when making representations concerning square footage and brokers must inform prospective purchasers that there is no permit for the addition."
Again, we cannot disclose what we do not know. We can only disclose what we know.
Many folks misunderstand what an MLS is. It is not a public utility.
It is a private entity. In this area, the Triangle Multi-List Service is owned and operated by the Raleigh Regional Association of Realtors.
The MLS is a means of sharing listings, sharing data, and offering a common language and common standards among Realtors.
TMLS Board of Directors make decisions how to address certain topics, and have been very clear on how to address and present unpermitted living area.
Corruption of data by inexperienced or sloppy or even unscrupulous Realtors is a problem. Fortunately, most try to play by the rules.
I'm pretty sure there are basements and attics all over the country that have been finished for decades and are perfectly fine.
Now, do you want to pay top dollar for a room where someone put up drywall, added carpets, and painted without pulling a permit?
Eh. Probably not a huge deal.
It's been my observation that a good many basements and attics come pre-plumbed and wired so that drywall and flooring can be added later. I think that permits are kind of a racket in that case because... come on. It's drywall and carpet, not rewiring the place.
I have mixed opinions on the issue.
how does the county permitting office and the insurance company asked to cover the space know it was fully roughed-in?
Permits are a significant problem right now.
1. Wake Co Tax Page isn't 100% accurate to their existence
2. No municipality seems to have kept them from 10 or more years ago - maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but you'll never know.
3. You're reliant on an inspector - who's NOT "looking behind the walls" and their professional eye to judge whether an extra space was built to sufficient standards. And they do a good job at it. Further, as long as you're willing to pay to have your damage repaired, you can rip off those walls to find out what lies behind.
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