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Hi-
I am posting after years of lurking to ask for some advice from the knowledgeable people here. I have already searched the House forum and didn't find much to help me. I own a center townhouse in NW Raleigh that was built in 2000. It was discovered during our community roof replacement project that the firewalls between most of the units are not properly constructed. Our HOA had a structural engineer assess the situation in each unit and the HOA board decided to leave it up to the individual homeowners to fix the problems in their own units. I believe the builder has gone out of business so I have no recourse there.
One of my common walls has the firewall panels installed on the wrong side of the wall studs, and my other common wall has significant gaps between the panels instead of the panels being flush together. Based on the amount of noise transfer I get through the shared walls I suspect there is little to no insulation in the common walls--I can hear my neighbors coughing, snoring, and talking.
Has anyone ever dealt with firewall issues like this in a townhouse or condo, and if so what did you do to fix it? I am trying to get some ideas about what my options might be before I hire a contractor so that I don't get scammed. I am thinking a total renovation (i.e. demolition down to the studs, and adding a new firewall, new quiet insulation and new sheet rock) is the only way to truly fix the problem. But maybe having cellulose insulation blown into the walls would be enough? My HOA already said I was allowed to have insulation blown in.
Am I wrong for thinking that the home inspector should have noticed the firewall issues and put them in my pre-purchase inspection report since the problems are visible in the attic? I had a very bad experience with the realtor I used as my buyer's agent and I used the home inspector he offered. I would not have purchased this townhouse if I had known prior to closing how shoddy the wall construction is between the units.
I would love to sell or rent out this townhouse and buy a SFH, but I am now priced out of my current zip code (27612). A townhouse in my block of 5 with the same floor plan as my unit recently sold for 30k more than I paid 3 years ago. I could afford a SFH in Durham, but I still would have to fix the firewall problems before I could put this townhouse on the market. I don't think it would be ethical to sell without fixing the firewalls--or maybe if I disclosed the problems it would be enough?
Anyway, thanks for reading this super long post and for any insight you have to offer-
Well, I wouldn't rely on "the HOA says..." unless that's what the hired engineer said was a suitable course of action.
Based on what you've said, the inspector probably did miss the "installed on the wrong side"...hard to say on the gaps you note. Do you mean 2 sheets of firewall were butted together end to end, or there's a gap between layers? I doubt an inspector would know about that type of gap. Assuming the inspector has some responsibility, you'd have to first go to your contract with them to see what their liability is.
If the gaps are side-to-side, then maybe that pink foam fire retardant material that's now code would shut off the gaps suitably. And what's the increase in risk from the firewall installed on the wrong side of the studs (I honestly don't know)?
I am sorry this has occurred; no I haven't heard of this specific issue before. But from time to time, we do hear about highly-unusual construction issues on townhouses and condos (that are harder to fix given the common ownership).
IMO if the city is going to require permits and inspections for everything on earth, they should be held liable for things that they have signed off on. Otherwise, it's just a money-making gimmick. In other words, inspectors should actually inspect.
Of course there would likely be a statute of limitations on things like this, so regardless you'd be out of luck.
It would be best to approach the situation as a group instead of individually to reduce costs. I'm not suggesting that the HOA be the coordinator, but rather a group of homeowners coming together themselves meeting with contractors/engineers as necessary and coming up with a cost effective solution.
However I do feel that the HOA seems to be burying their heads in the sand in dealing with this issue since it does affect the entire community. You could ask the city how it passed inspection, but I doubt you'll have any recourse regarding costs other than possibly waiving the permit fees during reconstruction.
Thanks for the replies-I am tardy getting back, been swamped at work. There is a big ol' disclaimer in the contract with the home inspector I used pre-purchase of course, so he really can't be held liable. And honestly I hope I never have to have any more contact with the realtor I used as a buyer's agent, so I will just handle things myself and not get in touch with either of them. I learned a lesson by using a friend of a friend as my agent because I was in a rush to buy at the time. I won't make that mistake again.
I looked back at the photos sent from the engineer to see all the issues that were noted. 1) The firewall material in some places that should be butted together side by side is not butted together, and looks like it was covered with drywall joint tape originally but now the tape has mostly fallen off. I bet I could fill those gaps with the foam stuff but will ask a contractor. 2) In some places the firewall material has fallen down and needs to be put back up. 3) There are also parts in the attic that should be covered with fireproof material but the wood was left bare (are those parts are called rafters? inside the attic at the top of the walls where the roof joins). And 4) one wall that has the firewall on the wrong side of the wall studs--I don't know if that is a hazard as such, or if it is simply contributing to the sound transfer from the neighboring unit.
I didn't get to ask the engineer a bunch of questions when he was here to inspect because he was on a fact finding mission and his time was limited.
Getting together with a few other owners to see if we can get a group rate is a good idea, I will see what my neighbors think. Each unit seems to have different problems with the firewalls, some worse than others. I think my unit is especially bad based on the amount of sound transfer I get from the units beside me. Other people in the neighborhood that I have talked to don't seem to have nearly the issues with sound transfer from the units beside them that I am experiencing.
I may get in touch with the city to ask if the plans are on file. It would be nice to know what kind of firewall was called for vs. what was installed and what the plans were for the construction of the common wall vs. what was actually done.
I am going to have to do something soon to remedy the noise situation or else I am going to have to buy a SFH and move. I have the feeling I am going to end up having to have this place gutted down to the studs to renovate if I decide to stay here. Not my idea of fun.
Whatever materials that are used to repair the fire wall must be fire rated as such. Talking to the city could get a bit dicey should they decide the building is in violation and demand corrective action within a given time period or risk facing fines. I would think they should take into consideration the facts surrounding inspections done when the building was constructed, but there's no way to really know without sticking your neck out so to speak in contacting them.
Any legitimate licensed structural engineer or contractor should be able to determine what repairs are required to bring the fire wall up to code standards. The structural engineer should specifically outline what needs to be done in their official written report and then you can get contractor bids based on that. Also, don't confuse acoustic noise control with fire control because they really aren't the same thing and both must be addressed individually for a complete and adequate solution to both issues.
Do you have any pictures of the areas in question???
I do have pictures in the letter from the HOA. Not sure how I can upload them, I don't have a scanner at home. I can scan them at the office and email them to myself I think.
Whatever materials that are used to repair the fire wall must be fire rated as such. Talking to the city could get a bit dicey should they decide the building is in violation and demand corrective action within a given time period or risk facing fines. I would think they should take into consideration the facts surrounding inspections done when the building was constructed, but there's no way to really know without sticking your neck out so to speak in contacting them.
Any legitimate licensed structural engineer or contractor should be able to determine what repairs are required to bring the fire wall up to code standards. The structural engineer should specifically outline what needs to be done in their official written report and then you can get contractor bids based on that. Also, don't confuse acoustic noise control with fire control because they really aren't the same thing and both must be addressed individually for a complete and adequate solution to both issues.
Good point about the city, I had not thought about that. I may ask some of the owners who have been here since the development was built about the plans. I know at least one of them has already done a major renovation.
Yeah I know acoustic noise control is a whole different situation, it just happens to be what is making me miserable. Or should I say miserable when my neighbors are home. I can put this place on the market without addressing the noise issues but I won't put it on the market without fixing the firewall problems.
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