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If you are at the max permitted speed, how are you impeding the flow of traffic?
If so, those passing you need to be cited as soon as they pass.
"Max permitted speed" is not the same as "max posted speed" on highways. At least according to troopers I've heard speak on the subject, the officially posted speed limit is set intentionally below the max expected speed for optimum traffic flow, because its understood many drivers are going to go 5-9 mph over whatever is posted anyway. Just setting your cruise control to the posted speed limit will cause occasional over the limit speed sometimes in most cars -- it's unavoidable. If they made the posted speed limit the true expected maximum, people would just exceed that by some margin and it would be hard to bring to court citations for 1 or 2 mph over.
Part of it has to do with the imperfect nature of radar and other speed monitoring technology. If they just set the speed limit at 80, then wrote tickets for people going 1-2 mph over, lawyers would just get the tickets tossed on the grounds that the technology is subject to margin of error. It makes more sense to add some margin for typical human behavior. So, if they set the max posted speed a little lower, and are writing tickets for 12-15 mph and leave a little wiggle room for the lawyers to haggle down, they have better luck keeping speeds under 80, or 85, or whatever the DOT feels is the true maximum safe limit for the road in question.
The other issue is that if you just let a bunch of dip-s**ts pile up in the left and right lane, the bottleneck can reach so far back that it creates a real problem for emergency vehicles and such.
"Max permitted speed" is not the same as "max posted speed" on highways. At least according to troopers I've heard speak on the subject, the officially posted speed limit is set intentionally below the max expected speed for optimum traffic flow, because its understood many drivers are going to go 5-9 mph over whatever is posted anyway. Just setting your cruise control to the posted speed limit will cause occasional over the limit speed sometimes in most cars -- it's unavoidable. If they made the posted speed limit the true expected maximum, people would just exceed that by some margin and it would be hard to bring to court citations for 1 or 2 mph over.
That's not true, the speed limit (when based on the speed of drivers on the road and not for safety or other reasons) is set to the 85th percentile of drivers during when speeds are studied. Nobody looks at "expected speed" and then subtracts 5-9 mph...... Now whether police officers choose to enforce speeds within 5-9 mph of the speed limit is another question (for the legal reasons you described)....though radar guns are pretty dang accurate now a days.
How are speed limits determined?
Roadways are initially designed to accommodate certain speeds. If a speed limit change is requested on a State Highway System road, a traffic engineer will perform an engineering and traffic investigation to determine the appropriate speed limit. These investigations examine:
• Road surface characteristics, shoulder conditions, roadway alignment and sight distance.
• Commercial and residential development, and roadside friction (number of driveways, parking, pedestrians, etc.).
• Safe speed for curves and other locations along the section of road being studied.
• Frequency and severity of crashes.
• 85th percentile speed — the speed at or below
which 85 percent of the traffic is moving.
This investigation will help the traffic engineer determine if the speed limit is safe and reasonable. The traffic engineer will share the results of the investigation upon request. If a change is recommended, the traffic engineer will request approval from the State Traffic Engineer. Once approved, speed limit signs will be changed and the new speed limit will become legally enforceable.
This! Totally yes! Same with Cary Parkway in the morning.
Get out of the fricking left damn lane. You're impeding traffic and I can't just pass you on the right because the sane slow drivers are already in that right lane. You have more than enough time to get over one lane to make your left turn when you need to.
This argument always pisses me off. No, no I can't pass on the right. There's already 3 slow drivers in that lane like they should be. Then there's your stupid fool self camped out in the left lane smack along side in the middle of them. I can't pass.
Go shop at the damn Fresh Market after the morning rush hour when everyone else gets to work. I swear the number of people I've been stuck behind down Cary Parkway in the morning in the left lane that travel from as far down as US-1 / Tryon just to turn into that grocery store parking lot is unreal. Don't tell me you need to be there to make your left turn. If you can't negotiate a lane change over that length of distance you shouldn't be driving a motor vehicle.
#venting #flipatable #argh #nervestruck
I can't safely change lanes so do not use the highways. What is needed here is rail transit options.
"Max permitted speed" is not the same as "max posted speed" on highways. At least according to troopers I've heard speak on the subject, the officially posted speed limit is set intentionally below the max expected speed for optimum traffic flow, because its understood many drivers are going to go 5-9 mph over whatever is posted anyway. Just setting your cruise control to the posted speed limit will cause occasional over the limit speed sometimes in most cars -- it's unavoidable. If they made the posted speed limit the true expected maximum, people would just exceed that by some margin and it would be hard to bring to court citations for 1 or 2 mph over.
Part of it has to do with the imperfect nature of radar and other speed monitoring technology. If they just set the speed limit at 80, then wrote tickets for people going 1-2 mph over, lawyers would just get the tickets tossed on the grounds that the technology is subject to margin of error. It makes more sense to add some margin for typical human behavior. So, if they set the max posted speed a little lower, and are writing tickets for 12-15 mph and leave a little wiggle room for the lawyers to haggle down, they have better luck keeping speeds under 80, or 85, or whatever the DOT feels is the true maximum safe limit for the road in question.
The other issue is that if you just let a bunch of dip-s**ts pile up in the left and right lane, the bottleneck can reach so far back that it creates a real problem for emergency vehicles and such.
They might not be "dip s---s". They may also be wise drivers that realize the posted speed limit is wrong because of changes in the road that were never considered originally.
We have a road posted 45 with several blind curves. I will not go 45 when there's no way to see what's around the curve. Several times, I avoided a wreck when something bad was around the blind curve.
You hot shots are the cause of many avoidable wrecks.
That's not true, the speed limit (when based on the speed of drivers on the road and not for safety or other reasons) is set to the 85th percentile of drivers during when speeds are studied. Nobody looks at "expected speed" and then subtracts 5-9 mph...... Now whether police officers choose to enforce speeds within 5-9 mph of the speed limit is another question (for the legal reasons you described)....though radar guns are pretty dang accurate now a days.
I said "...according to state troopers I've heard speak on the subject..." (including one relative, and another trooper who teaches driver improvement courses regularly in addition to regular duty, or did at the time he said that). And since they are the ones that actually make enforcement decisions regarding what speed is acceptable and what is not, their opinion is what matters most for purposes of my post.
A traffic engineer makes their determination based on what the computer tells them to do in a spreadsheet, simulation & modeling software, and so forth. A state trooper makes a determination based on a hands-on, common sense, real world assessment of driving that road over and over all day long as part of their career. You tell me which opinion you think is more valid?
Of course the DOT isn't going to mention the difference between posted speed limit and real world expected speed limit in some public service announcement, it would be contradictory and foolish to do so. Even still, there is nothing in that document contradicts what I have said. Not only that, in fact, your article seems to support my idea even further when it says:
85th percentile speed- the speed at or below which 85 percent of the traffic is moving.
This implies the POSTED speed limit is set based on 85 percent of the normal traffic flow, not to include the upper 15% which is expected to exceed the posted limit.
They might not be "dip s---s". They may also be wise drivers that realize the posted speed limit is wrong because of changes in the road that were never considered originally.
Or they might be crotchety old moaners that specialize in contrarianism for lack of something better to do, so they choose to camp out in the left lane to be difficult, because they gave up on the possibility of anyone liking them decades ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalBlvd
We have a road posted 45 with several blind curves. I will not go 45 when there's no way to see what's around the curve. Several times, I avoided a wreck when something bad was around the blind curve.
You hot shots are the cause of many avoidable wrecks.
Driving at a speed that goes with the general flow of traffic is what troopers / DMV employees recommend. Too much variation in speed, whether faster or slower, is when things get dangerous.
So, the state trooper's perception of what a "hot shot" is is very different than yours. So, with this new "fine" for turtle-ism, you just might get a new wake up call for your left lane loitering.
And since they are the ones that actually make enforcement decisions regarding what speed is acceptable and what is not, their opinion is what matters most for purposes of my post. A traffic engineer makes their determination based on what the computer tells them to do in a spreadsheet, simulation & modeling software, and so forth. A state trooper makes a determination based on a hands-on, common sense, real world assessment of driving that road over and over all day long as part of their career. You tell me which opinion you think is more valid?
Of course the DOT isn't going to mention the difference between posted speed limit and real world expected speed limit in some public service announcement, it would be contradictory and foolish to do so. Even still, there is nothing in that document contradicts what I have said. Not only that, in fact, your article seems to support my idea even further when it says
Sure, if you want to say that 85th percentile is what the troopers meant, go for it. But state troopers don't set the speed limit - that is solely a NCDOT decision. As someone who has literally seen the whole process from making a determination about the speed limit in my office to physically putting up the speed limit sign outside, I think I would know......
Oh and not all traffic engineers sit in front of a computer with spreadsheets and simulation software, we actually go outside and figure out what the 85th percentile speed is and make decisions on speed limits, signing, pavement markings, and do safety studies to figure out how to decrease accidents
Quote:
We have a road posted 45 with several blind curves. I will not go 45 when there's no way to see what's around the curve. Several times, I avoided a wreck when something bad was around the blind curve.
As Capital Blvd said above, there are design standards for different roads based on different travel speeds (sight distance around a curve so you can brake in time if there's someone running across the road etc...) so 85th percentile travel speed is not the only determination. Also there are considerations for residential streets or streets with tons of driveway access.
The yellow warning curve speed limit signs are calculated by hooking up a ball-bank indicator to a vehicle and seeing what number the ball banks to around a curve http://www.riekerinc.com/BallBankIndicators.htm and then figuring out the necessary recommended speed limit from there (Section 2C.08 of Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices)
Quote:
Support: Among the established engineering practices that are appropriate for the determination of the recommended advisory speed for a horizontal curve are the following:
An accelerometer that provides a direct determination of side friction factors
A design speed equation
A traditional ball-bank indicator using the following criteria:
16 degrees of ball-bank for speeds of 20 mph or less
14 degrees of ball-bank for speeds of 25 to 30 mph
12 degrees of ball-bank for speeds of 35 mph and higher
The 16, 14, and 12 degrees of ball-bank criteria are comparable to the current AASHTO horizontal curve design guidance. Research has shown that drivers often exceed existing posted advisory curve speeds by 7 to 10 mph.
Last edited by pierretong1991; 04-15-2017 at 06:36 AM..
Sure, if you want to say that 85th percentile is what the troopers meant, go for it.
No, the 85% percent quote came from the article YOU posted as support for your argument! loll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierretong1991
But state troopers don't set the speed limit - that is solely a NCDOT decision.
But the troopers are the ones making the executive decision on how to enforce it, so once again for purposes of my post (and this thread, which is about ticket fines), their opinion matters orders of magnitude more than all the desk jockeys at the DOT combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierretong1991
As someone who has literally seen the whole process from making a determination about the speed limit in my office to physically putting up the speed limit sign outside, I think I would know......
I addressed this in my prior post. Your career would tend to give you a heavy bias, and actually make it harder for you to see things from the perspective of the guys whose rubber actually hits the road. Sitting in front a computer looking at maps, simulations, and data all day is one thing. Patrolling the roads with a radar gun, and seeing the situation first hand, would give you a completely different (and for purposes of this thread, a far more accurate) view of what constitutes a safe speed limit. And, since decision on how to enforce is made by the trooper, posted speed limits, the perception of what they are, and how they get to be what they are really doesn't matter much.
I addressed this in my prior post. Your career would tend to give you a heavy bias, and actually make it harder for you to see things from the perspective of the guys whose rubber actually hits the road. Sitting in front a computer looking at maps, simulations, and data all day is one thing. Patrolling the roads with a radar gun, and seeing the situation first hand, would give you a completely different (and for purposes of this thread, a far more accurate) view of what constitutes a safe speed limit. And, since decision on how to enforce is made by the trooper, posted speed limits, the perception of what they are, and how they get to be what they are really doesn't matter much.
The lack of enforcement of the speed limit doesn't diminish the fact that it is there and is signed into North Carolina law.
Oh and not all traffic engineers sit in front of a computer with spreadsheets and simulation software, we actually go outside and figure out what the 85th percentile speed is and make decisions on speed limits, signing, pavement markings, and do safety studies to figure out how to decrease accidents
Well I see you updated your post after I posted mine, so in order to prevent the discussion from becoming a cacophony of diversionary articles about traffic engineering, I'm going to simply my point:
Fact: Troopers do not write tickets for 1-4 mph over the posted speed limit. Show me proof where this has happened EVEN ONCE in the last 10 years on any NC highway in a case involving only speeding (and no other offense or suspicion of offense), and I will conclude that troopers are liars and concede that you are in the right. The ticket must be written for that amount of overage, not negotiated down below the threshold in court.
What this fact means is that there are two values to understand: the POSTED speed limit and the enforced / expected maximum, speed limit.
All of the process of inner workings of the DOT are completely irrelevant. Troopers have a minimum threshold over the posted speed limit where they will begin pulling people over. That threshold can vary slightly between individual troopers, but many trooper has indicated that 9-12 mph over on a highway might start to get their attention. This is what they are trained to do.
That's it really. It's that simple. Posted and the expectation for maximum speed are two different things. Anything else is just complicating the discussion.
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