Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina > Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary
 [Register]
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary The Triangle Area
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-25-2018, 01:19 PM
 
Location: North of South, South of North
8,704 posts, read 10,847,193 times
Reputation: 5150

Advertisements

Disclaimer - Just my opinion.

Too much focus is on social engineering school population to create diversity and mask the issue of poor performing schools. I submit this: Rather than moving kids all about (expensive and disruptive to kids by being separated from friends and family) and expecting them to complete H.S. then go to college, why don't we look at what might work better for the students themselves. Not EVERYONE wants to or needs to go to college. Poorer areas often times suffer from generational poverty and as such, bad things happen. Many kids look at having to go through all this schooling and to them, for what?

Solution: Start converting "some" of the poor performing high schools to tech schools instead. Things this will solve are - Students attention span. When students are actually engaged with something hands on, there is a much better chance of them being focused on what they are doing. Hope. Rather than students being bored to tears just going through the motions for nothing (in their minds) and possibly dropping out, students can be taught a skill immediately...whether it be in computers, gaming, medical, electrical, plumbing, etc. Gone would the mundane, useless classes these kids feel will never do them any good. Now students would see a real possibility of doing better than their parents. They would have hope for their future. Not EVERY student would need to attend these schools. It would just give them a choice. A much better choice in many cases. They may also pull IN students from other areas of the county, if those students would prefer this type of schooling. I know I would have done it, instead of traditional college prep high school.

Even better: If students can intern with local companies and be guaranteed a job with them upon successful graduation. I believe more students would buy into a better future, if they knew they would have a job.

End result: No more need for busing for diversity. No more trying to mask the poor performing schools in Wake County buy dispersing the poor students amongst the better students. A slow end to generational poverty.

The environment in Wake County is a unique testing ground for this, as there are so many companies/opportunities in the area to make this successful. It's not like where I grew up with virtually no quality companies anywhere to be found. Wake County has a golden opportunity to do something transformational and trend setting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-25-2018, 02:27 PM
 
9,265 posts, read 8,216,055 times
Reputation: 7613
There is certainly a demand for trades/blue collar workers. Half the time I call a trades person I never get a call back.

The problem is getting kids motivated, and that needs to come from the parents at an early age.

I think your idea is great though - much better than the alternative.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,541 posts, read 5,459,646 times
Reputation: 2602
I think this is already being done in Wake County. At least I know that Athens Drive High offers a technical path with trades such as cabinet making.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 03:25 PM
 
16 posts, read 13,033 times
Reputation: 55
Default All good ideas, and I would add....

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Villages Guy View Post
Disclaimer - Just my opinion.

Too much focus is on social engineering school population to create diversity and mask the issue of poor performing schools. I submit this: Rather than moving kids all about (expensive and disruptive to kids by being separated from friends and family) and expecting them to complete H.S. then go to college, why don't we look at what might work better for the students themselves. Not EVERYONE wants to or needs to go to college. Poorer areas often times suffer from generational poverty and as such, bad things happen. Many kids look at having to go through all this schooling and to them, for what?

Solution: Start converting "some" of the poor performing high schools to tech schools instead. Things this will solve are - Students attention span. When students are actually engaged with something hands on, there is a much better chance of them being focused on what they are doing. Hope. Rather than students being bored to tears just going through the motions for nothing (in their minds) and possibly dropping out, students can be taught a skill immediately...whether it be in computers, gaming, medical, electrical, plumbing, etc. Gone would the mundane, useless classes these kids feel will never do them any good. Now students would see a real possibility of doing better than their parents. They would have hope for their future. Not EVERY student would need to attend these schools. It would just give them a choice. A much better choice in many cases. They may also pull IN students from other areas of the county, if those students would prefer this type of schooling. I know I would have done it, instead of traditional college prep high school.

Even better: If students can intern with local companies and be guaranteed a job with them upon successful graduation. I believe more students would buy into a better future, if they knew they would have a job.

End result: No more need for busing for diversity. No more trying to mask the poor performing schools in Wake County buy dispersing the poor students amongst the better students. A slow end to generational poverty.

The environment in Wake County is a unique testing ground for this, as there are so many companies/opportunities in the area to make this successful. It's not like where I grew up with virtually no quality companies anywhere to be found. Wake County has a golden opportunity to do something transformational and trend setting.

..two major - but, unfortunately, controversial - ideas to your proposals: school choice, and vouchers.

I think North Carolina should amend the state constitution to include the right of any parent to send his or her child to ANY school they wish; whether the school is public, private, trade/tech, religious - it doesn't matter. Parents should have the choice of which school they want to teach their child, as long as that school is accredited in some form by the state. Also, the state should fully support homeschooling; perhaps homeschooling could be tied to school choice by "anchoring" a homeschooled child to a local school that can conduct annual evaluations of that child's progress.

I think this would immediately have two impacts on schools in NC: competition, and accountability. Schools will be forced to compete for students by tailoring their programs to the local community....and they would also be forced to be accountable to those communities for the quality of teaching they provide, how financially efficient they are while doing so, and whether they deserve to get funding from the state and federal government as a result.

I also think this state, and this country, should introduce a school voucher system for K-12 education, that's tied to school choice. In NC, the state spends a little bit over $8,700 per year, per pupil, for education. I propose that NC, and all other states, create a voucher system in which HALF of what they spend per pupil is given to families in the form of a voucher, for parents to pay for schooling at any school they choose. In NC, that would come to a yearly check (in the form of education voucher accounts, hosted at major banks or through the federal government) of about $4,300. Residents would still be paying for education through taxes, but they would immediately receive half of those funds per child for tuition and expenses at any type of K-12 school they choose.

Education Spending Per Student by State

These two ideas have been discussed for decades, but have always been hampered by the special interests (teachers unions who would see their power and influence reduced as a result), and politicians who are financially supported by those same special interests. The problem with the existing system is that the special interests and politicians in education don't have children's best interests at heart; if they did, they wouldn't stand in the way of school choice, or giving money back to parents in order for them to afford any school they wanted to send their child to.

The present system will NEVER improve, and will probably get worse over time, if the special interests and political contributions of those special interests to elected officials aren't dealt with. And the best way to do that, is to hold conventions and change state constitutions to allow the new policies to be implemented. North Carolina IS uniquely positioned to conduct this experiment, because it's in the median per state in terms of spending per child....and it has an existing tech/manufacturing/business base to rely on, in terms of employment.

The last thing I'll mention here (but not the least important) that needs to be addressed is the low median salaries of NC teachers. SOMETHING needs to be done about that, so that the best teachers are drawn to the state. Still working on that one....but I would consider some form of tax increase or incentives for businesses to contribute to a state-managed salary fund for NC teachers. We might also consider, perhaps for a short time period until the new education system is in place, either an amendment to the state constitution or a statewide referendum to mandate funds to raise the average teacher salaries and benefits in NC to at least 75% of the national average. Right now, NC is spending about $5,500 per pupil in salaries and wages...while DC, the highest, spends about $14,000 per pupil. I think raising NC's percentage so that teachers here are paid an average of $7,000-$9,000 per pupil will increase both the quality and pool of teachers in the state. That's an investment few people (other than the special interests and the politicians who are supported by them) would be against.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 03:52 PM
 
Location: North of South, South of North
8,704 posts, read 10,847,193 times
Reputation: 5150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen Pitts View Post
I think this is already being done in Wake County. At least I know that Athens Drive High offers a technical path with trades such as cabinet making.
Not to the extent that they should, IMO. I remember when I went to school, there was only one tech school and it was located in the city. There was a stigma about people going there as well. That needs to change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 03:55 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 2,670,481 times
Reputation: 762
The Wake County school system seems like it is going to have issues pretty soon.In another few years the population being servwd will be close to 1.2 million residents correct?

About the busing situation...

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.newso...181096771.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 06:16 PM
 
346 posts, read 337,663 times
Reputation: 334
Social engineering can you know ..... have a SOCIETAL good. I’m all for trade schools for students ~16 y/o give or take. They need to opt in to this not be shoehorned there because someone thinks they can’t cut it academically. Also, our society has been drifting away from the science / math focus in education that post WWII made us a super power. It shows in the rise of conspiracy theorists and inability to discern fake news. Kids need a foundational education (3rs) and also includes critical thinking and foundations of epistemology. Of course, there are kids with learning disabilities or other special needs that as a society we should find a means to educate. After that, whether you are a doctor, mechanic, or nba player .... just don’t be a moron.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 06:33 PM
 
13,811 posts, read 27,344,522 times
Reputation: 14244
I recently tried to do long division by hand...I was embarrassed, I couldn't even remember how.

At my job the *only* math I need to know is multiply or divide by three. That's it! Think about all those wasted years of algebra etc.

Maybe we need to rethink education levels, a basic education truly is basic...basic math, history, etc. knowledge.

Use high school as a place to expand into your interests, example the kids who enjoy learning and/or want to excel academically can continue doing so. Those who do not or DGAF about school could focus more on trade type skills...how to weld/braze, basic plumbing and electrical work, construction materials, metal working etc.

I came out of high school with zero practical experience on how to do well, anything. I had one desire in life and that was get paid to operate heavy equipment. It's blue collar but pays more than most office type jobs.

As an anecdotal point...remembering back to my "shop" class in high school, the trouble makers and skippers that were low on the GPA ranking did really well and enjoyed it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 07:44 PM
 
Location: North of South, South of North
8,704 posts, read 10,847,193 times
Reputation: 5150
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
I recently tried to do long division by hand...I was embarrassed, I couldn't even remember how.

At my job the *only* math I need to know is multiply or divide by three. That's it! Think about all those wasted years of algebra etc.

Maybe we need to rethink education levels, a basic education truly is basic...basic math, history, etc. knowledge.

Use high school as a place to expand into your interests, example the kids who enjoy learning and/or want to excel academically can continue doing so. Those who do not or DGAF about school could focus more on trade type skills...how to weld/braze, basic plumbing and electrical work, construction materials, metal working etc.

I came out of high school with zero practical experience on how to do well, anything. I had one desire in life and that was get paid to operate heavy equipment. It's blue collar but pays more than most office type jobs.

As an anecdotal point...remembering back to my "shop" class in high school, the trouble makers and skippers that were low on the GPA ranking did really well and enjoyed it.
Excellent points. Also, it does not just have to be blue collar trades. This will work with computers, gaming and some medical fields. My wife simply took an 18 month course at Durham Tech and is making well over $125k. She is in Clinical Research...a PERFECT field for people to get into in that part of NC. Imagine if Wake County or Durham County students were allowed to forgo standard college prep HS and attend a tech school instead....knowing they can make so much money. WOW! That would be quite the motivator.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2018, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Research Triangle, NC
1,279 posts, read 1,714,074 times
Reputation: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Villages Guy View Post
Solution: Start converting "some" of the poor performing high schools to tech schools instead. Things this will solve are - Students attention span. When students are actually engaged with something hands on, there is a much better chance of them being focused on what they are doing. Hope. Rather than students being bored to tears just going through the motions for nothing (in their minds) and possibly dropping out, students can be taught a skill immediately...whether it be in computers, gaming, medical, electrical, plumbing, etc. Gone would the mundane, useless classes these kids feel will never do them any good. Now students would see a real possibility of doing better than their parents. They would have hope for their future. Not EVERY student would need to attend these schools. It would just give them a choice. A much better choice in many cases. They may also pull IN students from other areas of the county, if those students would prefer this type of schooling. I know I would have done it, instead of traditional college prep high school.
Two things:

1) Almost all the county high schools offer courses in CTE.

Rather than going through the process of converting entire schools into tech schools -- and thus forcing other schools to become overcrowded due to the displacement of students who don't have any desire or bent for technical education -- I believe counselors, teachers, and parents (and anyone else who has such a mentorship role) should do a better job of identifying students who would be best served by this sort of education and steering them accordingly. As a society, we tend to do a much better job of presenting tech school as a last resort instead of as a viable option.

2) As far as entire programs geared toward vocational education, these career academies exist and they're spread out across the county.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that not everybody needs to go to college... and I say this as someone who voluntarily spent way more time in college than the average person.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina > Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top