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i guess i feel bad for you then. Especially at the time sam was stood up. Those ladies literal parents fought and died.
I don't know why you can't imagine they acted out of fidelity to their lost loved ones than some sort of dastardly scheme to erect totems dedicated to oppressing black people over the centuries.
DoC are the ultimate lost causers but a bunch of nice old ladies.
Because the historical documents from the time indicate what their intention was.
They refused to participate in the raising of the Unity Monument at Bennett Place even though "General" Julian Carr (who was only ever a private in the CSA) spoke at it. They said it was a "monument to defeat" rather than a monument to unity and the lives lost on both sides. They were the true believers in the "Lost Cause" and I've got no time for that.
I am fine with public monuments and memorials to the lives lost on both sides of the Civil War and the lives spent in slavery, too. Certainly families can put up whatever memorials they want to their loved ones. There are plenty of those in cemeteries around NC. (Julian Carr's gravestone says "General" on it.)
I just don't think a divisive and offensive (maybe not to you, but to a lot of people) statue that only honors one side needs to be at the front door of UNC. There actually were a handful of UNC students who fought for the Union and certainly many, many African Americans who suffered in slavery, and yes in Chapel Hill and UNC. If they want to have a monument that honors all of those people on campus somewhere I'm okay with that, but I don't think it needs to be where Silent Sam was. That is one of the most prominent places on campus and the Civil War was a long long time ago. That's not the welcome mat we need for the University.
There's a very nice war memorial on UNC's campus that, rather than elevating the idea of the "Lost Cause", actually honors the individuals by name who fought in the Civil War and the all other wars, going back to the War of 1812 and up to the war in Afghanistan. Nobody is protesting that. It has every soldier's name on it. You can check it out online, here: https://alumni.unc.edu/news/war-memorial-complete-list/ It's a bronze book with "pages" you can pull out and read the names. On the website it has a brief biography of each soldier and how they died. It's a much better memorial IMO.
Really worth checking out. There are some very moving stories there.
And for the record I am not posting to argue with any of y'all. I just felt like I needed to add some info that was missing. Lest anyone think all North Carolinians with a Confederate history were in favor of Silent Sam, I just wanted to speak up and be counted among the North Carolinians with Confederate ancestors who don't want Silent Sam up on McCorkle Place at UNC and who view it for what it is — a memorial to the "Lost Cause".
^ that all sounds great, and certainly deepens the discussion and the knowledge of the situation.
I hope that I never implied that all or even possibly a majority of "southern" folks today believed the Civil War ended "wrong" or we should glorify the Confederacy.
But we shouldn't automatically demonize it, either.
You have your anecdotal experiences, and I have mine. I am 52 and born and raised in Durham, went to NC State and have basically lived in NC & the Triangle my entire life. I married a UNC grad, have been to UNC many times for social functions from 1981 until now. Have many (more than 200) UNC grad friends from 1981 until say 10 years ago. Not one of them has any recollection of Silent Sam being a source of memorable protest until the last several years.
Put me and them in the category of "bring out all the facts in a reasonable manner as 'poppydog' has on CityData, and our opinion would certainly change."
I don't know anyone I went to UNC with or anyone amongst the throng of UNC alums that stay and live in Chapel Hill who wants Silent Sam to stay, but I'm not sure what that says except our circles of friends might be different. Not sure if any of our friends get votes anyway.
I do know that the Chapel Hill-Carrboro Chamber of Commerce (the Chamber!) wants it to be removed permanently, the librarians (those radicals) say don't give it to them, and the town governments as well as many professors want it gone, too. The only people I know of around these parts that want it to stay are the ACTBAC folks from Alamance County and they can rally around their monument in Graham if they want one.
^ that all sounds great, and certainly deepens the discussion and the knowledge of the situation.
I hope that I never implied that all or even possibly a majority of "southern" folks today believed the Civil War ended "wrong" or we should glorify the Confederacy.
But we shouldn't automatically demonize it, either.
You have your anecdotal experiences, and I have mine. I am 52 and born and raised in Durham, went to NC State and have basically lived in NC & the Triangle my entire life. I married a UNC grad, have been to UNC many times for social functions from 1981 until now. Have many (more than 200) UNC grad friends from 1981 until say 10 years ago. Not one of them has any recollection of Silent Sam being a source of memorable protest until the last several years.
Put me and them in the category of "bring out all the facts in a reasonable manner as 'poppydog' has on CityData, and our opinion would certainly change."
Why not? Demonize it, I mean?
Not all the people who fought for the CSA were bad people, of course. But, the CSA? Totally worth demonizing. The articles of secession make that pretty darned clear.
This does NOT mean the soldiers who fought were bad people and I'm sure some of them really had no clue what was even in the articles of secession and were just fighting to support their friends, family, and homes. But, the cause itself was actually a terrible one that I don't see any value in honoring. I do believe in keeping the history in museums and I certainly agree it's respectful for families and groups to place monuments to the dead in cemeteries and museums.
I say this as a native whose family background is similar to poppydog's.
I love my ancestry. I don't love all the things they did.
It's possible to hold both these views simultaneously.
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Not all the people who fought for the CSA were bad people, of course. But, the CSA? Totally worth demonizing. The articles of secession make that pretty darned clear.
This does NOT mean the soldiers who fought were bad people and I'm sure some of them really had no clue what was even in the articles of secession and were just fighting to support their friends, family, and homes. But, the cause itself was actually a terrible one that I don't see any value in honoring. I do believe in keeping the history in museums and I certainly agree it's respectful for families and groups to place monuments to the dead in cemeteries and museums.
I say this as a native whose family background is similar to poppydog's.
I love my ancestry. I don't love all the things they did.
It's possible to hold both these views simultaneously.
I think most people are too simple-minded to understand the difference between the confederacy and the people swept up in it. Most northern accounts of the war are just as simple-minded and preposterous as most southerners. The civil war was complicated and most of the people who fought it were neither slave holders nor abolitionists. Most people have an elementary school understanding of the war and its causes and even that is colored by the biases of their teachers.
Last edited by BullCity75; 09-06-2018 at 08:14 AM..
I think an analogy can be made between the Civil War and the Vietnam War. Not everyone will agree with this, of course, but in my view the Vietnam War was despicable -- America clearly (to me) not at its best. Nevertheless, I believe that we should honor the soldiers who fought and died in this war, and I appreciate the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington. To stretch the point somewhat, many German-Americans were distraught about the American involvement in the first world war. Because their descendants might be offended, should we be deprived of memorials to the soldiers who fought and died in WW1? Vietnam?
After 13 years on this forum I have come to realize a few people here (as wonderful as I am sure they are in real life) can't manage to have civil conversations about mundane topics like "Best Pizza" or the value of HOAs. So it really comes as no surprise to me that when it comes to more complicated posts about controversial topics they inevitably end up becoming a race to the bottom between a vocal minority of posters bent on proving each other "wrong".
While I agree with this point in general, for this specific thread I've found myself enlightened by a number of these posts, which general seem civil and reasonable.
I couldn't agree more, North. I really love this forum and get a lot out of (reading) it, but I have learned that pretty much anything (regardless of how harmless) you post is subject to being turned into an attack. I would like to post more here, but from past experience, I won't.
I don't know anyone I went to UNC with or anyone amongst the throng of UNC alums that stay and live in Chapel Hill who wants Silent Sam to stay, but I'm not sure what that says except our circles of friends might be different. Not sure if any of our friends get votes anyway.
for what it's worth, I never said that today, anyone I knew wanted it to stay. Especially given what it has come to signify - rightly or wrongly.
When I get new information, I adjust my opinion accordingly. Without any other evidence, what was "the statue that legend said would fire his gun if a female virgin ever crossed his path" became a statue that needed to eventually go once I heard about Carr's speech.
But that was my method, and my opinion. It's the casting of anyone - not by you or most on here, but some for sure, and all the protestors we hear from - on the other side as "racists", "Nazis", "rednecks", etc. of anyone who might need more convincing than the protestors' wishes.
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