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Old 10-09-2019, 08:41 PM
 
2,389 posts, read 2,469,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
The figure I’m throwing around is the all in nut I paid in property taxes; to your point I’m not sure how that is made up town vs county vs....

And yes it’s tough to compare.

My only point was you can have your own town schools districts, good schools and not pay anything near the numbers we’ve seen posters share here over the years; 15-20K in property taxes.


I would gladly pay 6-8K a year in property taxes if I got a town school district. Like you couldn’t take my money fast enough (if what we’re seeing is what I get for $4K)


You could pay that in Chapel Hill but you may not have the same size house. Plus you should be aware that Chapel Hill does their assignments based on socioeconimic diversity. This seems to be bone of contention in this thread. You can't have the tiny NY/NJ districts those cost double what you are willing pay.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:20 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
I think that's one advantage of municipality based school systems. If you want to pay an extra 5k a year in taxes (and more for a house) for what you consider to be better schools, you're welcome to do that. It gives more choice. You can pay 1M and 15k a year in taxes for higher rated schools, or you can move one or two towns over, and pay 500k and 6k a year for lower rated schools. You have that choice.
Agreed. It also doesn't dilute the focus I, as a taxpayer, will get from the elected officials running things, in this discussion, a school system.

It works the same in city/town government. Too marco an area and focus is lost. My buddy moved from Bedford Falls to Wake Forest basically so he could have a town mayor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
Ironically MA is one of the most liberal states in the country, and many would probably call their town-based school systems segregated. That confuses me sometimes.
Agreed. There are few towns that are very racially diverse there. Regardless of one's opinion on what causes the overt segregation, there isn't really a debate on its existence. It is very strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
Test scores are going to be higher in areas that attract people who prioritize education - I mean it's not rocket science. Is it bad for people to want to live, work, and go to school with people that have similar values and priorities as their own? Is it up to a school board to determine if that's right or wrong?
There's more to it than not prioritizing education, but no I don't have an issue intrinsically with wanting to "live life" with people in the same station as you.

I have said before in these "school board is trying to X" threads that I think they are missing the forest through the trees with the real world application of their strategies. They are tackling today's issues using yesterday's solutions because they are so afraid of the perception of the issues actually being yesterday's.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
10,625 posts, read 7,763,837 times
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what were the socioeconomics in the NY/NJ/MA districts? 40% free and reduced lunch?
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:30 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal_M View Post
[/b]

You could pay that in Chapel Hill but you may not have the same size house. Plus you should be aware that Chapel Hill does their assignments based on socioeconimic diversity. This seems to be bone of contention in this thread. You can't have the tiny NY/NJ districts those cost double what you are willing pay.
I'm not looking to move around the Triangle; either where we are works and we stay, or we leave in a couple of years for somewhere else. But yes, I could move to CH if I had to have it here in the Triangle.

As a rule, no, they don't. There are towns all over MA that have good schools and you don't pay 16K a year (I literally shared one in the post before the one you quoted) in property taxes.

This is the query I have with Nick's point. He said his focus with the "you can pick two of three" wasn't just NC. I've lived in towns where his rule doesn't apply, which is why I asked him to level set what he considers high property taxes; because maybe what he considers high is kinda in the middle to me.

Yes, NY/NJ/Fairfield Co. CT/NH/Suburbs west of Boston (Newton/Wellsley/Brookline) have outrageous Property Tax bills. But you can in fact get a high performing, town school district, for less than that.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:37 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBromhal View Post
what were the socioeconomics in the NY/NJ/MA districts? 40% free and reduced lunch?

In the town my parents lived in, 14%
In the town we moved here from, 15%
In the town we rented in (which I brought up earlier), 12%

Couldn't tell you what the eligibility criteria for it was there (or here).

ETA - since i don’t know the eligibility criteria I’ll give median HH income values
59,200
81,300
93,000

Which are pretty close to FV, WF and Cary respectively income wise

Last edited by GVoR; 10-09-2019 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:58 AM
 
10 posts, read 4,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
I think that's one advantage of municipality based school systems. If you want to pay an extra 5k a year in taxes (and more for a house) for what you consider to be better schools, you're welcome to do that. It gives more choice. You can pay 1M and 15k a year in taxes for higher rated schools, or you can move one or two towns over, and pay 500k and 6k a year for lower rated schools. You have that choice.

Ironically MA is one of the most liberal states in the country, and many would probably call their town-based school systems segregated. That confuses me sometimes.

Test scores are going to be higher in areas that attract people who prioritize education - I mean it's not rocket science. Is it bad for people to want to live, work, and go to school with people that have similar values and priorities as their own? Is it up to a school board to determine if that's right or wrong?
Who has that choice? Not many people, that's for sure. Most people can't afford to pay a million dollars for a home (frankly, most people can't even pay the $500k that you name as the entry fee for lower-rated schools). So, choice for the wealthy and too bad for everyone else? That isn't actually choice, it's opportunity hoarding.

I think it's more than a little awful that you keep claiming poor people, as a whole, simply don't care about education. Can you possibly imagine a situation where a parent cares a great deal about education, but can't, say, afford to pay the $377k that represents the median home price in Cary? Or to hire tutors, send their kids to high-quality preschool, baby music class, enrichment activities, summer camps and all of the things that wealthier kids get that guarantee them those high test scores?

You are correct that town-based school systems exacerbate segregation. That was, as I understand it, literally the whole point -- housing segregation was created and enforced by federal housing policy, and school assignment systems based on that enforced segregation are, no surprise, similarly segregated. That the north is terribly segregated doesn't make efforts to re-segregate southern schools any better.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:27 AM
 
5,629 posts, read 4,065,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmom1975 View Post
Who has that choice? Not many people, that's for sure. Most people can't afford to pay a million dollars for a home (frankly, most people can't even pay the $500k that you name as the entry fee for lower-rated schools). So, choice for the wealthy and too bad for everyone else? That isn't actually choice, it's opportunity hoarding.

I think it's more than a little awful that you keep claiming poor people, as a whole, simply don't care about education. Can you possibly imagine a situation where a parent cares a great deal about education, but can't, say, afford to pay the $377k that represents the median home price in Cary? Or to hire tutors, send their kids to high-quality preschool, baby music class, enrichment activities, summer camps and all of the things that wealthier kids get that guarantee them those high test scores?

You are correct that town-based school systems exacerbate segregation. That was, as I understand it, literally the whole point -- housing segregation was created and enforced by federal housing policy, and school assignment systems based on that enforced segregation are, no surprise, similarly segregated. That the north is terribly segregated doesn't make efforts to re-segregate southern schools any better.
Why is it that:

When middle-class people get upset about being re-assigned to a lower performing school, people say "all the schools are great, test scores mean nothing".

But when you suggest that you just let the school zones be created naturally, people say "well that's not fair to lower-income people who can't afford the higher home prices in the higher rated school zones".

So, which is it?

...also I never said lower income people don't care about education. Based on test scores alone, it would appear in some lower income families, education may be less of a priority. I don't think it has anything to do with sending your kid to daycare or baby music class.

Last edited by m378; 10-10-2019 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly DC and Phila
8,659 posts, read 12,907,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal_M View Post
[/b]

You could pay that in Chapel Hill but you may not have the same size house. Plus you should be aware that Chapel Hill does their assignments based on socioeconimic diversity. This seems to be bone of contention in this thread. You can't have the tiny NY/NJ districts those cost double what you are willing pay.
Assignments in Chapel Hill are only partially based on socioeconomic diversity. It is primarily based on where you live. And within that framework, they try to make the socioeconomic spread relatively even. But that is not the primary factor. No one on the south side of CH, for example, is being assigned East CH High on the east side of town. *Most* people go to the schools closest to where they live.

They do seem to bus some of the poorer residents from the various apartment complexes to different schools but they were going to be bused anyway, and again it's not generally way across town. Also, when they opened Northside Elementary which would draw from the lowest socioeconomic area in town and simultaneously made FPG a Spanish dual language school, they clearly tried to also get some richer folks into Northside, mostly from nearby neighborhoods. But again that was done at an opening of a school, not just for diversity's sake, and they had to get the kids from somewhere anyway. Also, with the opening of Northside, they did take kids from farther-than-normal neighborhoods, but that was because those kids were being shut out of their base school anyway.

Right now they are dealing with an overcrowded Smith Middle school and will likely change some assignments away from that school. Yes, they will take socioeconomic diversity into consideration when making moving kids, but that wouldn't have moved them just to move them without the bigger problem of the overcrowding.

ETA: Chapel Hill is about 20-25% poverty. With a small school district, it is certainly in their best interests to keep that rate fairly level in all of the schools, rather than have one school school be 50% and one be 0%, for example. But for the most part, the low-income residents are spread out (where they live) so they naturally populate the schools in that ratio. When there is a change, the district clearly takes their status into consideration keeping it somewhat balanced.

Last edited by michgc; 10-10-2019 at 08:57 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:51 AM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmom1975 View Post
Who has that choice? Not many people, that's for sure. Most people can't afford to pay a million dollars for a home (frankly, most people can't even pay the $500k that you name as the entry fee for lower-rated schools). So, choice for the wealthy and too bad for everyone else? That isn't actually choice, it's opportunity hoarding.
m378 was simply throwing example numbers around. Median house prices in many towns in MA are in the 400s - its just that 400K doesn't get you what 400K does here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmom1975 View Post
I think it's more than a little awful that you keep claiming poor people, as a whole, simply don't care about education. Can you possibly imagine a situation where a parent cares a great deal about education, but can't, say, afford to pay the $377k that represents the median home price in Cary? Or to hire tutors, send their kids to high-quality preschool, baby music class, enrichment activities, summer camps and all of the things that wealthier kids get that guarantee them those high test scores?
Which is why I pointed out the "there's more to it than just not prioritizing education". There have been systematic barriers for damn near our entire existence as a country that are present, but really not fit for discussion on this sub; even if they are relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmom1975 View Post
You are correct that town-based school systems exacerbate segregation. That was, as I understand it, literally the whole point -- housing segregation was created and enforced by federal housing policy, and school assignment systems based on that enforced segregation are, no surprise, similarly segregated. That the north is terribly segregated doesn't make efforts to re-segregate southern schools any better.
The difference is the North doesn't have the stain of the Original Sin and subsequent Jim Crow era to fight off.

However, the way MA attempts to battle is how they fund their schools.

Basically the State Education Board goes district by district (so town or regional school district) and sets a number for what each student in that town will get in terms of funding (the number is a floor, there is no ceiling on funding). Poorer areas will get a higher "Foundational Number" while more wealthy areas will get a lower number.

So Town1 is poorer than average while Town2 is more wealthy than average.

The State says "the kids in Town1 need $11,000 a pupil because they are at a disadvantage" and "the kids in Town2 need $9,000 a pupil as they are less disadvantaged". The disparity in funding floor is the "de-segregating" mechanism. They don't bus kids around school to school to counter it, they don't say "hey in our MSA we have 40% reduced lunch, lets sprinkle those kids around to ensure an equal distribution of them throughout the area; taking those kids away form their communities" they literally say "nah you kids stay at your local school, and you kids can stay at your local school, we'll try to balance this by giving you more than them because they need less help". Why take a kid out of the their community to attempt a forced solution that isn't really part of the problem?

So Town1 raises says $3K per student through local taxes and the state, who previously said each kid is to get $11K, closes the gap through state funding; meaning the state puts $8K into the kitty.

Town2 is more wealthy and the people of that town have said "we're going to have higher property taxes to fund all the things we want in our town". So the town is required to fund $8K of the $9K Foundational budget through local taxes, which means the state throws in that $1K to close the gap, but because Town2 choose to have higher taxes on property to help further fund education, the town then throws in another $5K per student from their coffers (which Town1 could do, but chooses not to).

At the end of the day, the state provides more dollars and a higher floor to the poorer town while the more wealthy town spends $4K more per student (because that is what they want to do with their tax revenues). Each kid in the poorer town gets $11K and the kids in the wealthier town get $9K, but because the wealthier town people voted to pay $25/1000 in property taxes, that extra $5K gets put on top.

This is a real life example, comparing Lynn MA (poorer town) to Newton (way more wealthy town). The "segregation" isn't systematic; there is no rule keeping people from Lynn out of Newton, its a result of free market forces. The median home price in Lynn MA is $354K and the medium HH Income is $53K. The median home price in Newton is north of a million dollars and the median HH income is $119K.

To make that more locally focused, if the people of a more wealthy town, say Cary, want to pay higher taxes so they can fund more to education (because the school is theirs, it isn't some county school), but the state is willing to fund say Franklinton more because they are less well off, why should we play student musical chairs?


ETA - Before anyone gets confused, I lay out this example as someone who lived the embodiment of diversity overseas and value it's impacts on my life greatly. I am not arguing for racial segregation, I just don't think you battle the inequalities of societies (economically speaking) by shuffling people around like fleas on a barn floor.


ETA2 - I will fully grant we may do the same thing here in NC, but the County aspect of it, to me, creates an entity that is too macro in the equation.

Last edited by GVoR; 10-10-2019 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Research Triangle Area, NC
4,084 posts, read 2,796,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
Assignments in Chapel Hill are only partially based on socioeconomic diversity. It is primarily based on where you live. And within that framework, they try to make the socioeconomic spread relatively even. But that is not the primary factor. No one on the south side of CH, for example, is being assigned East CH High on the east side of town. *Most* people go to the schools closest to where they live.

They do seem to bus some of the poorer residents from the various apartment complexes to different schools but they were going to be bused anyway, and again it's not generally way across town. Also, when they opened Northside Elementary which would draw from the lowest socioeconomic area in town and simultaneously made FPG a Spanish dual language school, they clearly tried to also get some richer folks into Northside, mostly from nearby neighborhoods. But again that was done at an opening of a school, not just for diversity's sake, and they had to get the kids from somewhere anyway. Also, with the opening of Northside, they did take kids from farther-than-normal neighborhoods, but that was because those kids were being shut out of their base school anyway.

Right now they are dealing with an overcrowded Smith Middle school and will likely change some assignments away from that school. Yes, they will take socioeconomic diversity into consideration when making moving kids, but that wouldn't have moved them just to move them without the bigger problem of the overcrowding.
From my understanding; Northside was also planned to be a new high-tech school in a poor/working class neighborhood when it was originally conceptualized. In the meantime; the Northside neighborhood itself transitioned from said working-class neighborhood with low-income families to a mix of high-end student rentals and DINK couple owners who liked the "walkability" factor. There just weren't many kids left in that neighborhood for the "neighborhood school" by the time the school was actually built.

The zone for Northside is nuts in how wide a range it is geographically. Neighborhoods north of Homestead Rd and South/East of 15-501 in the Morgan Creek area zoned for the same elementary school near downtown. Yet as you alluded; Seawell and Glenwood are both over-capacity even with that switch.

That being said; if the socioeconomic demographics of the Northside neighborhood hadn't shifted; I imagine there still would have been higher-income neighborhoods zoned for it for the sake of said diversity.
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