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Old 10-10-2019, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
10,625 posts, read 7,763,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
People say that on this forum all the time.

WCPSS has been saying it as well. "Don't judge a school by a third party website (test scores), go visit and find out for yourself". In other words, this school is just as good as the one you're at, if you ignore test scores.
people say the system is good. people say kids can succeed at any school.

Quote:
When middle-class people get upset about being re-assigned to a lower performing school, people say "all the schools are great, test scores mean nothing"..
Wake County puts out test scores for every school. they put out info on the conditions at every school.

Now, if we're talking greatschools.org ... sure. I'd tell you not to pay attention to that
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
10,625 posts, read 7,763,837 times
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here's NC Report cards on every public school in Wake County
https://ncreportcards.ondemand.sas.c...920&currpage=1

here's the Wake County direct site

https://www.wcpss.net/Page/5055
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:02 PM
 
5,629 posts, read 4,065,431 times
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7EQNx1Md4o
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:10 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBromhal View Post
and IMO, this is how we should do it. providing higher funds to lower-income schools, and keeping kids close to home, is the way to go, again, IMO.

Wake runs a 2.2B budget, or $10,550 per pupil.

https://www.wcpss.net/cms/lib/NC0191...20Internet.pdf

The funds are roughly:

7% Feds = $738
59% State = $6,224
34% Local = $3587 . (which, by the way on tax discussion, my fairly high bill would go 91% towards this allotment)



The State should set a fairly high floor, like $5,000/pupil, because we do have some very poor counties.

Then, the counties might set their own floors as some schools within the county are "wealthier" than others. Maybe in Wake that's $2,000/student.

What if the difference was applied/"given" (like a voucher) to the ED students? You might have some of the higher income schools clamoring for them to come there.

Looks like MA has 12-14 counties. We have 100. Does MA fund schools from state, county, and town funds - all 3 sources (and Fed of course)? Where are property taxes created - all 3 levels, or just county/town?

How's it done in Boston? How are schools in Boston? I can only say google - greatschools shows 3-4 good high schools and then it drops off the side of the cliff.
Counties largely don't mean much in MA. In the counties I have lived in (Plymouth and Bristol) there is no county tax. Sales and Income taxes go to the State, Property goes to the town/city.

I can't speak for Boston Proper - Never lived there - but I do know most of the best schools in Boston are Private (Boston Latin, Milton Academy, Boston College HS)

As I shared before, the state sets the funding floor on a town by town (or regional if a couple of towns share schools); the town puts in funding from property taxes and the state closes the gap between what the town put up and the floor they set for the town, but in towns which have higher property taxes, they can and do go above the State set floor. For instance, there is a town in SE MA, Sharon, which had a super high tax rate (something like $20/1000) and they had some of the best public schools on the South Shore. They also have a large, somewhat conservative, religious majority in town, so they had all sorts of odd town bylaws, like no music can be heard from your yard on the street and you can't smoke cigarettes outside of your house (i.e. you couldn't be seen from the street on your property smoking).

Here is a link to how they do it. This link is what I pulled the numbers from when I spoke to ncmom.

How School Funding Works In Massachusetts

Also, here is some background on counties in MA and how they literally aren't a thing other than lines on a map.

https://www.sec.state.ma.us/cis/cisl.../ciscounty.htm

Last edited by GVoR; 10-10-2019 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly DC and Phila
8,659 posts, read 12,907,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmom1975 View Post

I think of it this way: if you take an excellent school that has fewer than 10% f&r kids, and change the student population so that it's closer to 50%, what changes? The teachers are the same, the admin is the same, the course of study is the same. In all likelihood, the school's achievement scores will go down, at least temporarily (but, the theory runs, growth for all kids should remain consistent or improve). The school's report card will take a hit, but the school will still be excellent. That's why I say that test scores aren't a reliable measure of school quality.
What changes? Teachers leave the school when it changes from 10% poverty to 50% poverty. Fewer parents volunteer. Programs such as robotics, Science Olympiad, Battle of the Books go away or get reduced. AP classes get reduced. Fewer families complaining about bad teachers, so they stay. Families of wealthy kids move or switch to private schools. It nos becomes a higher poverty ratio school. School declines over time.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,786 posts, read 6,577,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
Ok so if all schools are excellent, where is the "opportunity hoarding" that you claim of the middle class living in the areas with higher rated schools?
Because if you concentrate the lowest performing student demographics you cause other issues. Teachers are less likely to want to teach there. Resources are stretched, its tougher to keep order, its tougher to teach. Much easier to spread it out a bit and allow more areas to shoulder the burden.

In any case, I think that you're missing that A) the district is growing rapidly, and that means B) that schools will have to be built and that C) people are going to be going to schools that they don't think make sense from a geographic perspective.

It isn't about "Equity" and it isn't about Geography, at least not exclusively.

If you live in a capped area, or an area with growing or shrinking student populations, your school may change. Tough. If a school is built to alleviate or prevent overflowing, you may well have to go elsewhere. I've seen that happen in a district that had 40K people (total people, not students) too.

Look at Wakefield Elementary's map: Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site

Or Heritage:
Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site

I doubt you'd have any consternation about the quality of student being bussed in from across the town there.

You will never have perfectly agreeable neighborhood school maps. It isn't going to happen, even with perfectly agreeable school maps for today. Demographics change, population changes. You have a school built in 1990 and one built in 1970 and one built in 2010 with predictions for the future, but no one has a crystal ball. So when the growing school system builds a school that's 100,000 sf to take the pressure off of one or two other schools, they're not going to make everyone happy.

Last edited by Yac; 10-17-2019 at 03:01 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:15 PM
 
5,629 posts, read 4,065,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Because if you concentrate the lowest performing student demographics you cause other issues. Teachers are less likely to want to teach there. Resources are stretched, its tougher to keep order, its tougher to teach. Much easier to spread it out a bit and allow more areas to shoulder the burden.
So just to summarize, you're saying that schools with a higher number of low income students are not as excellent as a school with a lower number, and the way to fix that is to average everything out by moving higher income students into lower income schools?
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:26 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Because if you concentrate the lowest performing student demographics you cause other issues. Teachers are less likely to want to teach there. Resources are stretched, its tougher to keep order, its tougher to teach. Much easier to spread it out a bit and allow more areas to shoulder the burden.

In any case, I think that you're missing that A) the district is growing rapidly, and that means B) that schools will have to be built and that C) people are going to be going to schools that they don't think make sense from a geographic perspective.

It isn't about "Equity" and it isn't about Geography, at least not exclusively.

If you live in a capped area, or an area with growing or shrinking student populations, your school may change. Tough. If a school is built to alleviate or prevent overflowing, you may well have to go elsewhere. I've seen that happen in a district that had 40K people (total people, not students) too.

Look at Wakefield Elementary's map: Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site

Or Heritage:
Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site

I doubt you'd have any consternation about the quality of student being bussed in from across the town there.

You will never have perfectly agreeable neighborhood school maps. It isn't going to happen, even with perfectly agreeable school maps for today. Demographics change, population changes. You have a school built in 1990 and one built in 1970 and one built in 2010 with predictions for the future, but no one has a crystal ball. So when the growing school system builds a school that's 100,000 sf to take the pressure off of one or two other schools, they're not going to make everyone happy.

The Heritage Map makes me laugh out loud.

I live in Heritage, my kids are/will not be in Heritage Elementary, however that pocket on the north side of the map is not Heritage, yet that's their school.

Further, some friends of ours used to live off Durant/Perry Creek in Raleigh. Their kids got put in Heritage (presumably to "equal out" the social demographics - which is hilarious because they are upper middle class based on HH income, yet lived in a "less wealthy area")

They moved to Heritage 6 months before we did....they are the only family in our group with kids in Heritage ES.

So the whole "move kids around" apparently looks at home address rather than a tax return?

Last edited by Yac; 10-17-2019 at 03:01 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,786 posts, read 6,577,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
What changes? Teachers leave the school when it changes from 10% poverty to 50% poverty. Fewer parents volunteer. Programs such as robotics, Science Olympiad, Battle of the Books go away or get reduced. AP classes get reduced. Fewer families complaining about bad teachers, so they stay. Families of wealthy kids move or switch to private schools. It nos becomes a higher poverty ratio school. School declines over time.
That's true, but its an absurd proposition. Wake County doesn't have the demographics to make that happen, unless they tried, and even then they could do it with what, one school? The education and income and other demographics county wide make it absurd. Is the son of an Orthodontist that goes to Wakefield really damaged by the small handful of kids that come in from Mini-City? Or the kids at North Ridge from kids in Worthdale? No. But it may be what's needed to get a few kids from Worthdale or Mini City a better start. And reality isn't the doom-and-gloom pearl clutching you paint it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBromhal View Post
well, people don't say that. I do say "drill down into the test scores", because that info IS available through NC Report Cards.

But those middle class people (of which I am one) typically don't want to hear anything but "I was told Davis Drive weas the bestest, so I bought in Davis Drive. Now I should get to stay at Davis Drive no matter what!"
Which makes the argument kind of silly, even if you turned that area into the "Cary-Apex Combined SD" you would still have to move kids around, sometimes farther than ideal. Because its a desirable area. At some point there's no more rooms, and building new schools means some people are going to have their assignment shift and they'll be really mad about it. But if that's a concern then you really shouldn't have moved to western Wake to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
So just to summarize, you're saying that schools with a higher number of low income students are not as excellent as a school with a lower number, and the way to fix that is to average everything out by moving higher income students into lower income schools?
No, what I'm saying is that it causes a true lack of opportunity for some kids, while spreading out some of the lower income kids allows them a better opportunity without taking anything from kids from better backgrounds. Again, see examples, Wakefield, Joyner, North Ridge, Lead Mine...Kids from better backgrounds still do very, very well, and parents aren't pulling their kids out to send them to private schools or moving en masse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
The Heritage Map makes me laugh out loud.

I live in Heritage, my kids are/will not be in Heritage Elementary, however that pocket on the north side of the map is not Heritage, yet that's their school.

Further, some friends of ours used to live off Durant/Perry Creek in Raleigh. Their kids got put in Heritage (presumably to "equal out" the social demographics - which is hilarious because they are upper middle class based on HH income, yet lived in a "less wealthy area")

They moved to Heritage 6 months before we did....they are the only family in our group with kids in Heritage ES.

So the whole "move kids around" apparently looks at home address rather than a tax return?
I use Heritage/Wakefield maps for the purpose of illustrating why, in this county, you may very well not have your "neighborhood schools," EVEN IF you bust up WCPSS into smaller districts. Wake Forest still has to contend with the fact they are a much bigger town than they were in 2000. In 2000 there were 12.5K people. Now there are 44K people. You would be looking at similarly goofy maps regardless.

ALl of that goes to illustrate the fact that the WCPSS has a difficult task in assigning schools based on current facilities, and sometimes has to make decisions that have little to do with "Diversity" or anything else. Simply, It's the most reasonable option to get this group of kids to school, since the "neighborhood" school is at capacity.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:18 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
Reputation: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
I use Heritage/Wakefield maps for the purpose of illustrating why, in this county, you may very well not have your "neighborhood schools," EVEN IF you bust up WCPSS into smaller districts. Wake Forest still has to contend with the fact they are a much bigger town than they were in 2000. In 2000 there were 12.5K people. Now there are 44K people. You would be looking at similarly goofy maps regardless.

ALl of that goes to illustrate the fact that the WCPSS has a difficult task in assigning schools based on current facilities, and sometimes has to make decisions that have little to do with "Diversity" or anything else. Simply, It's the most reasonable option to get this group of kids to school, since the "neighborhood" school is at capacity.

I don't disagree with your point, but doesn't this raise two questions

1. If you stay with county based model, doesn't this further prove that the scale (county v town) is too big to be centrally managed?

2. This is the problem with local leaders, both here in WF, and seemingly elsewhere in the Triangle. They want the area to grow, but have no plans to ensure the infrastructure (schools, roads etc etc etc) meet the scale of the community.

There was a town meeting a couple of weeks ago here where residents were battling the town giving a developer the go ahead to add a couple of thousand apartments along Forestville/Rogers Rd. Basically the residents were arguing that the roads cant handle current volumes, and you are about to add a bunch more people in the very spot traffic is an issue.

The vote passed 3-2 and one the yes votes, a town Manager actually told the residents in the town meeting "if you guys are so worried about traffic, I assume you all take public transportation to avoid being part of the problem"...

Ummmmmm what? I can't wait to vote against her.
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