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Old 10-10-2019, 03:44 PM
 
5,629 posts, read 4,065,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post

No, what I'm saying is that it causes a true lack of opportunity for some kids, while spreading out some of the lower income kids allows them a better opportunity without taking anything from kids from better backgrounds. Again, see examples, Wakefield, Joyner, North Ridge, Lead Mine...Kids from better backgrounds still do very, very well, and parents aren't pulling their kids out to send them to private schools or moving en masse.
I find it hard to believe that it works one way, but not the other. There really is no way to measure the actual affects without correlating income and test scores on an individual basis over a certain period of time.

But we at least agree that schools with higher percentages of low income students, perform at a lower level. So you can understand why parents who get reassigned from a school with 5% low income to a school with 50% low income, would question the move. Yes, when you move to a high growth area you should realize that there will be a certain amount of school instability in order to curb growth. However for people with children, schools are probably the #1 priority when considering a relocation. There is no way to just average out all the schools like the board wants to. People with the means will continually move to where they think the best schools are, and reassignments will be endless even after growth has slowed.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
I don't disagree with your point, but doesn't this raise two questions

1. If you stay with county based model, doesn't this further prove that the scale (county v town) is too big to be centrally managed?
I'd disagree. Because it allows the county to say, "There are a bunch of kids that we need to plan for in North Raleigh, and declining enrollment in Wakefield as kids are getting older/graduating without younger turnover, we'll send them to Wakefield." Where otherwise smaller districts would have to build, or add on, and the empty school might close, but there would be a net loss of the resources. It could easily play out in the Apex/Holly Springs/FV area.

Heck I played football games in HS at a High School in a town that was open for 20 years. The town didn't shrink in that time either. Demographics changed. It basically became a gym/field/adult-ed building. Total waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
2. This is the problem with local leaders, both here in WF, and seemingly elsewhere in the Triangle. They want the area to grow, but have no plans to ensure the infrastructure (schools, roads etc etc etc) meet the scale of the community.

There was a town meeting a couple of weeks ago here where residents were battling the town giving a developer the go ahead to add a couple of thousand apartments along Forestville/Rogers Rd. Basically the residents were arguing that the roads cant handle current volumes, and you are about to add a bunch more people in the very spot traffic is an issue.

The vote passed 3-2 and one the yes votes, a town Manager actually told the residents in the town meeting "if you guys are so worried about traffic, I assume you all take public transportation to avoid being part of the problem"...

Ummmmmm what? I can't wait to vote against her.
Crazy...What Public transport is up there at all? Totally nuts...Even when I lived in Downtown Raleigh PT was a joke.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Get off my lawn?
730 posts, read 277,360 times
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In an effort to better educate myself on the topic of socioeconomic integration in schools a few months ago, I ran into a couple of extensively sourced articles on the subject, and thought it might be worth sharing with folks again on this thread.

The first is a short summary of social science research findings in this area:
https://school-diversity.org/pdf/Div...Oct2016Big.pdf

The second is more of a discussion article, with sources:
https://www.aft.org/sites/default/fi...Kahlenberg.pdf

Last edited by RaleighSentinel; 10-10-2019 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: Broken link
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly DC and Phila
8,659 posts, read 12,907,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
That's true, but its an absurd proposition. Wake County doesn't have the demographics to make that happen, unless they tried, and even then they could do it with what, one school? The education and income and other demographics county wide make it absurd. Is the son of an Orthodontist that goes to Wakefield really damaged by the small handful of kids that come in from Mini-City? Or the kids at North Ridge from kids in Worthdale? No. But it may be what's needed to get a few kids from Worthdale or Mini City a better start. And reality isn't the doom-and-gloom pearl clutching you paint it to be.
Well I wasn't referring to Wake County but a hypothetical scenario that a previous poster posted. But to answer your question, no the son of an Orthodontist is not going to be affected by a small handful of supposedly poorer students. It's when that handful gets to a certain size, that it would start to have a negative effect - on teachers, programs, wealthy families leaving the school, etc.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
I find it hard to believe that it works one way, but not the other. There really is no way to measure the actual affects without correlating income and test scores on an individual basis over a certain period of time.
Sure there are. Look at the demographic breakdowns on schools that have a combination of low income and High Income students. Minority students don't do as well. It doesn't seem to hurt white students. Look at the links I've posted several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
But we at least agree that schools with higher percentages of low income students, perform at a lower level. So you can understand why parents who get reassigned from a school with 5% low income to a school with 50% low income, would question the move.
Where is this happening? What proposed reassignments have this? The only ones I can think of would be students in areas like Minicity or Southeast Raleigh where they're being bussed to schools in more affluent areas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
Yes, when you move to a high growth area you should realize that there will be a certain amount of school instability in order to curb growth. However for people with children, schools are probably the #1 priority when considering a relocation. There is no way to just average out all the schools like the board wants to.
So? What does that have to do with anything? A baseball player that gets a hit 30% of the time is an All-Star. That he fails the other 70% of the time is a fact of the game. That doesn't mean that he doesn't take every at bat. The district won't be able to totally average it out, but why not do what you can?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
People with the means will continually move to where they think the best schools are, and reassignments will be endless even after growth has slowed.
If they did, no one would move here. Because let's be honest, WCPSS is good. But it isn't the best, or even close. And yet, people are willing to move here for a variety of reasons; they don't want to live in "The Best" schools if it means they live in a shoe box. They'd rather have decent schools if they can have a decent sized house, job prospects, lifestyle.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:09 PM
 
771 posts, read 274,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
I'd disagree. Because it allows the county to say, "There are a bunch of kids that we need to plan for in North Raleigh, and declining enrollment in Wakefield as kids are getting older/graduating without younger turnover, we'll send them to Wakefield." Where otherwise smaller districts would have to build, or add on, and the empty school might close, but there would be a net loss of the resources. It could easily play out in the Apex/Holly Springs/FV area.

But how small are the districts you're thinking?


WF has 44K people. Between the 2 main HS its like 4K kids. WF would be big enough to be their own district. But you could certainly do a regional thing too, for towns that maybe aren't as big or as a means to pool their resources. I mean there's a city in SE MA of 100K people. Has one HS. 4400 kids go to it.



If you (county) are going to tease this "Neighborhood School Concept" then just do away with. Battle the "segregation thing" through different funding. "Means Test" it if you will. But Wake is a huge place. I've been here two plus and years and have never stepped foot in Cary, I've been to the Target in HS once and one neighborhood in FV...what do any of those places have to do with where I am in WF?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Crazy...What Public transport is up there at all? Totally nuts...Even when I lived in Downtown Raleigh PT was a joke.

I think there is a Raleigh bus that comes a couple of times a day, maybe?
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post

Where is this happening? What proposed reassignments have this? The only ones I can think of would be students in areas like Minicity or Southeast Raleigh where they're being bussed to schools in more affluent areas?
I picked 50% out of the air as an example, but both last year and this year they were looking to move kids from 5-8% FR lunch percentage, to 25-30% or more.

I mean the board has been very open about their intentions and goals, so if the opportunity is there they're going to try and take it.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,786 posts, read 6,577,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
I picked 50% out of the air as an example, but both last year and this year they were looking to move kids from 5-8% FR lunch percentage, to 25-30% or more.

I mean the board has been very open about their intentions and goals, so if the opportunity is there they're going to try and take it.
Again, what assignments? Can you provide specifics?
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Again, what assignments? Can you provide specifics?
Davis Drive Middle to East Cary Middle last year, and White Oak and Highcroft Elementary and Mills Park Middle to Salem Elementary and Salem Middle this year. The DDMS -> EC move ended up not being approved, but East Cary is pretty far from DDMS (probably close to 30 min with traffic).

I'm sure there are other examples as well.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,786 posts, read 6,577,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
Davis Drive Middle to East Cary Middle last year, and White Oak and Highcroft Elementary and Mills Park Middle to Salem Elementary and Salem Middle this year. The DDMS -> EC move ended up not being approved, but East Cary is pretty far from DDMS (probably close to 30 min with traffic).

I'm sure there are other examples as well.
Oh. The. Horror. Get real.

So how do you solve that? Because looking at a map they’re likely to be in the same district overseen by the same board if you break up into smaller districts.

What a joke.
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