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Old 10-10-2019, 05:48 PM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
17,359 posts, read 26,679,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Oh. The. Horror. Get real.

So how do you solve that? Because looking at a map they’re likely to be in the same district overseen by the same board if you break up into smaller districts.

What a joke.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but people who go to White Oak are not represented by the same board member as Salem. I truly doubt East Cary has the same rep as DDMS. Is that what you meant?

And yeah, being bused 20 minutes across town (without traffic or bus stops) is kind of a big deal when the school starts at 7:20 a.m. WCPSS has enough transportation issues without adding extreme busing to the mix. Our high school is two miles away and our bus comes 35 minutes before the first bell. Not sure middle schoolers need to catch a bus at 6:30 just to satisfy the BOE's need to move kids around.

Last edited by twingles; 10-10-2019 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
10,625 posts, read 7,763,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
The Heritage Map makes me laugh out loud.

I live in Heritage, my kids are/will not be in Heritage Elementary, however that pocket on the north side of the map is not Heritage, yet that's their school.

Further, some friends of ours used to live off Durant/Perry Creek in Raleigh. Their kids got put in Heritage (presumably to "equal out" the social demographics - which is hilarious because they are upper middle class based on HH income, yet lived in a "less wealthy area")

They moved to Heritage 6 months before we did....they are the only family in our group with kids in Heritage ES.

So the whole "move kids around" apparently looks at home address rather than a tax return?
if the Heritage map makes you laugh - look at the Wakefield ES one - students from 3 distinct and far flung areas.

Yes, student assignment is based on NODES. And there might be 1000 nodes in Wake County. They follow census data, I believe.

Want to attend a magnet school? Your best opportunity is a high income node that's assigned to an overcapacity high income school.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:04 PM
 
339 posts, read 158,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaleighSentinel View Post
In an effort to better educate myself on the topic of socioeconomic integration in schools a few months ago, I ran into a couple of extensively sourced articles on the subject, and thought it might be worth sharing with folks again on this thread.

The first is a short summary of social science research findings in this area:
https://school-diversity.org/pdf/Div...Oct2016Big.pdf

The second is more of a discussion article, with sources:
https://www.aft.org/sites/default/fi...Kahlenberg.pdf
Reposting this in hopes that people read the studies.

Economically diverse schools benefit ALL students. High achieving students’ test scores remain high, lower achieving students’ test scores increase, and all students learn social awareness that better prepares them for work and life.

And since it’s a thread about quality education, the word is effect (n.), not affect (v.).
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m378 View Post
I find it hard to believe that it works one way, but not the other. There really is no way to measure the actual affects without correlating income and test scores on an individual basis over a certain period of time.

But we at least agree that schools with higher percentages of low income students, perform at a lower level. So you can understand why parents who get reassigned from a school with 5% low income to a school with 50% low income, would question the move. Yes, when you move to a high growth area you should realize that there will be a certain amount of school instability in order to curb growth. However for people with children, schools are probably the #1 priority when considering a relocation. There is no way to just average out all the schools like the board wants to. People with the means will continually move to where they think the best schools are, and reassignments will be endless even after growth has slowed.
and we're back to my "OMG, we have to go to Davis Drive!!" based on not one thing but that first # they put out. and how all that movement into what was it's base assignment zone creates #students>#capacity,. and thus reassignments.

so you are correct - overall, schools with higher ED kids have a grade lower than schools with unnaturally low ED %'s.

Alternatively ...

my kids and their friends have gone to schools which are currently B's & C's, but they're graduating a B-rated high school with high 4 GPA's, 1450+ SAT's, 34+ ACT's. And LOTS of extracurricular activities. And a very happy community. Just look at the teacher input from Broughton (33% ED) vs Green Hope (8.3% ED).
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
10,625 posts, read 7,763,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickandiron View Post
Reposting this in hopes that people read the studies.

Economically diverse schools benefit ALL students. High achieving students’ test scores remain high, lower achieving students’ test scores increase, and all students learn social awareness that better prepares them for work and life.

And since it’s a thread about quality education, the word is effect (n.), not affect (v.).
I can show you how lower % ED schools actually have HIGHER scores for the ED than more "homogenous" schools. And higher %'s of Level 3-5 throughout the student body demographic.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,786 posts, read 6,577,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twingles View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but people who go to White Oak are not represented by the same board member as Salem. I truly doubt East Cary has the same rep as DDMS. Is that what you meant?

And yeah, being bused 20 minutes across town (without traffic or bus stops) is kind of a big deal when the school starts at 7:20 a.m. WCPSS has enough transportation issues without adding extreme busing to the mix. Our high school is two miles away and our bus comes 35 minutes before the first bell. Not sure middle schoolers need to catch a bus at 6:30 just to satisfy the BOE's need to move kids around.
If you break the district up the it’s likely you would have a Cary school district which would have the same problem with DDE and adjust by reassigning kids within the district. Like they did in the examples cited. Davis Drive to east Cary is ridiculous but the others cited make sense.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly DC and Phila
8,659 posts, read 12,907,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickandiron View Post
Reposting this in hopes that people read the studies.

Economically diverse schools benefit ALL students. High achieving students’ test scores remain high, lower achieving students’ test scores increase, and all students learn social awareness that better prepares them for work and life.

And since it’s a thread about quality education, the word is effect (n.), not affect (v.).
I read the first article. Without looking at each of the studies cited, I cannot see the specifics of who was studied, what the improvements were, by how much, etc. It's also hard to tell when they are talking specifically about SES diversity and when they are referring to racial and ethnic diversity. It also comes from a source whose mission is to promote diversity. Not saying I don't believe what they say, but the article is a short promotional-type piece that doesn't delve into the research to allow one to read it critically.

I mostly read the second article (it's getting late and I know I've read it before). A good portion of it references a study done in Montgomery County, MD about integrating lower-income students into higher-income schools and also a study done there about interspersing low-income housing into higher-income neighborhoods rather than concentrating them in one area. The first study showed increases in achievement in low-income students but doesn't say at what point there are too many low-income students to be beneficial - again, what's the optimal ratio where low income students benefit and high income students don't regress? The housing study showed benefits of interspersing low-income residents but doesn't really relate much to neighborhoods where the poor don't necessarily live near the wealthy.

They also talk about Wake County in the second article and its success (how successful was it?) at using SES for diversity but this was from awhile ago and then the county faced political upheaval in 2009. A county in KY tried to do something similar but wanted to avoid the problems Wake faced. They found, among other things, that integrating by choice through magnet schools works better (from a parent's point of view) than forcing students to attend a certain school. They also point out, later in the article, that a legitimate concern of mixing low and high income students is students being segregated within schools - in other words, there are still significant gaps in achievement between low and high income within a school. (As an example, this is a huge problem in Chapel Hill schools that they are trying to address. It's also a problem in TC Williams, the only high school in Alexandria, VA.)

Lastly, these articles are both dated as are the studies they reference. It would be nice to see some updated studies on how low- and high-income students fare in a mixed SES school. Ideally, researchers would be able to find the optimal point at which low-income students benefit and high-income ones aren't hurt by it. But even if they do find the sweet spot, there are other ramifications if the populations aren't located near each other - cost, distance traveled, less community involvement, etc.

Fun Fact: I worked on NAEP - the assessment referenced in both articles and also worked a bit on PISA - the international assessment referenced in the second article. I also lived in Montgomery County, MD, the location referenced in the second article and am familiar with their low-income housing program.

ETA: Please excuse anything I wrote that doesn't make sense or if I missed something. It's late and my eyes are glazed over.

Last edited by michgc; 10-11-2019 at 12:06 AM..
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:25 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
17,359 posts, read 26,679,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
If you break the district up the it’s likely you would have a Cary school district which would have the same problem with DDE and adjust by reassigning kids within the district. Like they did in the examples cited. Davis Drive to east Cary is ridiculous but the others cited make sense.

I don't think they are breaking the district up, from what I'm reading on the WCPSS forums the problem is they are represented by Lindsay Mahaffey and Salem is in someone else's district (Fletcher? can't remember). At any rate, they are reassigning White Oak Preserve subdivision to Salem and that's not gonna be a quick ride, not to mention kids who go to Salem generally go to Apex HS and GHHS but WCPSS doesn't seem to care about a few handfuls of kids who might go to a high school of 3000 students and only know a few other kids when they get there. White Oak is zoned for Green Level.

The reassignment from White Oak Elementary (which just opened a couple of years ago and is way under capacity) also moves people from traditional calendar to year round, I think making people change schools is one thing - making them change schools AND calendars is a bit much. Last year when they wanted to move Davis Drive MS to East Cary, they at least changed East Cary to a traditional calendar (which many ECMS parents were unhappy about!)
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:31 AM
 
Location: under the beautiful Carolina blue
17,359 posts, read 26,679,748 times
Reputation: 13330
Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
. They found, among other things, that integrating by choice through magnet schools works better (from a parent's point of view) than forcing students to attend a certain school. k:

WCPSS is trying to force this issue through unappealing reassignments (ie making people switch schools that are far away ["may as well go to a magnet!] and by switching them from traditional to year round calendars). They are also doing it by removing electives from the high schools. They removed guitar and tech theatre as electives at Green Hope this year. Tried to remove orchestra from DDMS this year but parents won that battle - but guess what if there's no orchestra at the middle school, how much interest will there be when the kids get to HS? Hope the orchestra teacher at GHHS is paying attention! But oh guess what if your child is interested in the arts, we have magnets for that!
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:35 AM
 
5,629 posts, read 4,065,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twingles View Post
I don't think they are breaking the district up, from what I'm reading on the WCPSS forums the problem is they are represented by Lindsay Mahaffey and Salem is in someone else's district (Fletcher? can't remember). At any rate, they are reassigning White Oak Preserve subdivision to Salem and that's not gonna be a quick ride, not to mention kids who go to Salem generally go to Apex HS and GHHS but WCPSS doesn't seem to care about a few handfuls of kids who might go to a high school of 3000 students and only know a few other kids when they get there. White Oak is zoned for Green Level.

The reassignment from White Oak Elementary (which just opened a couple of years ago and is way under capacity) also moves people from traditional calendar to year round, I think making people change schools is one thing - making them change schools AND calendars is a bit much. Last year when they wanted to move Davis Drive MS to East Cary, they at least changed East Cary to a traditional calendar (which many ECMS parents were unhappy about!)
I think what JONOV is trying to say is that if theoretically they went to town/city districts then you still see the same type of reassignments. Which my be true, but I think part of the problem currently is it's absolutely impossible for the county system to be on top of development across the county, which if course there is a boatload of. They make a lot of assumptions based on open land. I think a town based district would be a lot more in touch with development within its own borders which would in turn prevent some unnecessary reassignments.
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