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"My hope is that the statue will go back in the custody of UNC for the purpose to destroy it," student De’Ivyion Drew said."
You can't have statues Progressives don't like. Well, you can but they'll tear them down and beat you up if you disagree. Then they say "put them in a museum where they belong" but they block funding and they'll protest the museums too.
I guess it is too much to ask to put an additional plaque in front of the statue that explains the complicated history of these monuments. It is worrisome that an educational institution such as UNC lacks the willingness to educate and chooses instead to remain beholden to the mob. The willfully ignorant mob choose to remain so in order to flex their power over others and slander everyone they disagree with as racist. After all, you can't make money as a grievance grifter if you don't have a "cause" to fight for.
I try to stay out of political stuff but come on. A plaque might be appropriate if the statue was erected even remotely close to the civil war and the dedication speeches were about honoring people who fought for a noble cause. But the reality is that the statue was put up like 50 years after the civil was over in response to people of color getting a few legal rights and the speeches were about white supremacy. So yes, it is too much to ask for a plaque to simply be put there. Sorry, this is the wrong side of history.
And regardless, this “settlement” was shady insider dealing to transfer the statue and $2,574,999 to a white supremacist group that should have been used for education and deserves to be undone.
I try to stay out of political stuff but come on. A plaque might be appropriate if the statue was erected even remotely close to the civil war and the dedication speeches were about honoring people who fought for a noble cause. But the reality is that the statue was put up like 50 years after the civil was over in response to people of color getting a few legal rights and the speeches were about white supremacy. So yes, it is too much to ask for a plaque to simply be put there. Sorry, this is the wrong side of history.
And regardless, this “settlement” was shady insider dealing to transfer the statue and $2,574,999 to a white supremacist group that should have been used for education and deserves to be undone.
This right here! Even members of the SOC disagreed with the deal. The SOC has a ruling faction that is full on white supremacist. Conveniently some of the money that was put into a trust has already been spent.
I try to stay out of political stuff but come on. A plaque might be appropriate if the statue was erected even remotely close to the civil war and the dedication speeches were about honoring people who fought for a noble cause. But the reality is that the statue was put up like 50 years after the civil was over in response to people of color getting a few legal rights and the speeches were about white supremacy. So yes, it is too much to ask for a plaque to simply be put there. Sorry, this is the wrong side of history.
And regardless, this “settlement” was shady insider dealing to transfer the statue and $2,574,999 to a white supremacist group that should have been used for education and deserves to be undone.
Yes and yes. The detail you lay out in the first paragraph (the timing of these various statues showing up in the public square) is a detail many overlook because ignoring details is a favorite pastime of modern American discourse.
Civil War history is a passion of mine. Been to basically all the main battlefields in the Eastern Theater. Statues raised during the height of Jim Crow, have really nothing to do with "honoring our boys".
I try to stay out of political stuff but come on. A plaque might be appropriate if the statue was erected even remotely close to the civil war and the dedication speeches were about honoring people who fought for a noble cause. But the reality is that the statue was put up like 50 years after the civil was over in response to people of color getting a few legal rights and the speeches were about white supremacy. So yes, it is too much to ask for a plaque to simply be put there. Sorry, this is the wrong side of history.
And regardless, this “settlement” was shady insider dealing to transfer the statue and $2,574,999 to a white supremacist group that should have been used for education and deserves to be undone.
Wonder if the board members who made this "deal" will be resigning ? Disgraceful and embarrassing.
And regardless, this “settlement” was shady insider dealing to transfer the statue and $2,574,999 to a white supremacist group that should have been used for education and deserves to be undone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaPaKoMom
This right here! Even members of the SOC disagreed with the deal. The SOC has a ruling faction that is full on white supremacist.
Prove it. And I mean the organization as a whole not one or two extremists that are members. Otherwise you are engaging in slander. I grew up in VA where there used to be Civil War re-enactments as a way to teach history. I've met SCV members and other re-enactors involved in Civil War history and in over 40 years of doing so I have yet to come across one that has racist beliefs. I realize I am a sample of one but you would think that if a racist belief system existed within these groups it would have been obvious.
That money could also have been used for a museum to house the statue because that is where the mob is telling us they should be but UNC couldn't be bothered to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR
Yes and yes. The detail you lay out in the first paragraph (the timing of these various statues showing up in the public square) is a detail many overlook because ignoring details is a favorite pastime of modern American discourse.
Civil War history is a passion of mine. Been to basically all the main battlefields in the Eastern Theater. Statues raised during the height of Jim Crow, have really nothing to do with "honoring our boys".
Some do. They were allowed to be raised so the South could honor their dead and begin to heal but some people co-opted the monuments for their own nefarious purposes. Some of the reason it took decades after the civil war to build them is because the Southern economy was wrecked. That still doesn't mean a mob gets to make a decision to destroy them or slander anyone who disagrees as a racist. The mob isn't going to stop at statues.
If a person is so mentally fragile that a statue erected almost 200 years before they were born causes them a mental breakdown they should seek help.
"People effectively act as though destruction of a monument exorcises its power and removal banishes the power from their midst. But these pieces of metal and stone only have the meaning we assign to them, and that meaning can take any form we like. They can be revered or reviled; honored or ridiculed; or co-opted for a new purpose. I understand the affront that Confederate monuments are to those whose ancestors were held as slaves or died preserving our country, and to those who suffer and oppose racism today. However, destroying monuments takes a page out of the playbook of mobs across the centuries, lowering one’s self to that moral plane."
Some do. They were allowed to be raised so the South could honor their dead and begin to heal but some people co-opted the monuments for their own nefarious purposes. Some of the reason it took decades after the civil war to build them is because the Southern economy was wrecked.
The vast majority of the monuments and statues went up between 1890-1950 and were funded largely by the UDC...who also led the charge in getting Stone Mountain created...you know the location used as the birthplace of the second Klan.
You can argue all you want that those connections are merely circumstantial. But taken in totality; layering in the Lost Cause Mythology that the UDC basically helped create, and its pretty clear to many that this was simply a multi front "attack" to soften the narrative. The statues were for our boys (not to remind the black folks that they still ain't free in this land), the war wasn't about the State Right to own another human being (it was about standing up for Southern Nobility and Honor!) and William J. Simmons just liked Stone Mountain for the view.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad
That still doesn't mean a mob gets to make a decision to destroy them or slander anyone who disagrees as a racist. The mob isn't going to stop at statues.
I agree. Don't destroy them. Put them in museums and on Battlefield State/National Parks so I can see them in their proper context. And I agree, not everyone who disagrees is a racist. They are simply sympathizing with someone/something that was on the wrong side of history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad
If a person is so mentally fragile that a statue erected 200 years before they were born causes them a mental breakdown they should seek help.
That's easy for someone whose ancestors weren't subjugated, owned as property, had their entire culture stripped away and once that was all over, took another 100 years to get guaranteed rights to say. But ya, they need help....
FTR my ancestors weren't slaves. However they did help occupy Murfreesboro and laid waste to Hood's Army at Franklin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad
"People effectively act as though destruction of a monument exorcises its power and removal banishes the power from their midst. But these pieces of metal and stone only have the meaning we assign to them, and that meaning can take any form we like. They can be revered or reviled; honored or ridiculed; or co-opted for a new purpose. I understand the affront that Confederate monuments are to those whose ancestors were held as slaves or died preserving our country, and to those who suffer and oppose racism today. However, destroying monuments takes a page out of the playbook of mobs across the centuries, lowering one’s self to that moral plane."
I have never, in any thread on this sub, where this topic has come up (and there are many), defended anyone who has destroyed one of these statues. There are proper means to imparting change, and most of the time, destroying property; while not only a crime in and of itself, is not the manner to achieve the change you are looking for.
Prove it. And I mean the organization as a whole not one or two extremists that are members. Otherwise you are engaging in slander. I grew up in VA where there used to be Civil War re-enactments as a way to teach history. I've met SCV members and other re-enactors involved in Civil War history and in over 40 years of doing so I have yet to come across one that has racist beliefs. I realize I am a sample of one but you would think that if a racist belief system existed within these groups it would have been obvious.
The Stephen Dill Lee Institute is the SCV’s main educational outreach program, according to its website. The next event is being held in Raleigh in 2020 where six academics are expected to speak. The program’s stated goal is to “organize accomplished and distinguished professional scholarship to inform our members and the general public of the Southern side of the war,” including issues of states’ rights, economic motives, Union Army war crimes and “the dubious benevolence behind the slavery issue.” Really?! That's a telling statement from a group avowing it's not racist.
That money could also have been used for a museum to house the statue because that is where the mob is telling us they should be but UNC couldn't be bothered to do that.
Hey, here's a novel idea: How about paying no money at all for anything like that and just get rid of a statue erected for racist reasons like the way other places are doing? We'd save millions that way. Oh, that's right, that would be capitulating to "the mob." A wonderful way to refer to people with real grievances. Then again, I see below that you took that definition from someone else. That figures too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbrad
Some do. They were allowed to be raised so the South could honor their dead and begin to heal but some people co-opted the monuments for their own nefarious purposes. Some of the reason it took decades after the civil war to build them is because the Southern economy was wrecked. That still doesn't mean a mob gets to make a decision to destroy them or slander anyone who disagrees as a racist. The mob isn't going to stop at statues.
If a person is so mentally fragile that a statue erected almost 200 years before they were born causes them a mental breakdown they should seek help.
"People effectively act as though destruction of a monument exorcises its power and removal banishes the power from their midst. But these pieces of metal and stone only have the meaning we assign to them, and that meaning can take any form we like. They can be revered or reviled; honored or ridiculed; or co-opted for a new purpose.I understand the affront that Confederate monuments are to those whose ancestors were held as slaves or died preserving our country, and to those who suffer and oppose racism today. However, destroying monuments takes a page out of the playbook of mobs across the centuries, lowering one’s self to that moral plane."[/b]
Defending your position by quoting a two-and-a-half-year-old editorial in lieu of facts doesn't bring much credibility to your argument here. Look, everyone who's studied it knows that Silent Sam and other Confederate statues were by and large erected decades after the Civil War to honor white supremacy. It's a noxious notion of "remembering" history, especially for a side that lost the conflict.
Your responses that I've boldfaced above tell me more about you and your issues rather than offer any good reasons on why Judge Baddour's decision was wrong to overturn this undeserved $2.5 million payout to the SCV--who just happen to have given financial support to many Republicans in the legislature. Wow, what a coincidence. You can keep on arguing your side, maybe even using facts this time rather than your opinion, but I'm betting history is going to be against you.
....Judge Baddour's decision was wrong to overturn this undeserved $2.5 million payout to the SCV--who just happen to have given financial support to many Republicans in the legislature. Wow, what a coincidence. You can keep on arguing your side, maybe even using facts this time rather than your opinion, but I'm betting history is going to be against you.
There was a thread floating around for a bit about Raleigh spending $250K for a logo where the discussion was focused on how that was stupid and wasteful and proof off government spending our money without concern. I even granted that the move would have minimal ROI, even though it was a small spend as a portion of the budget.
Without knowing the entire funding trail at UNC, as a state school it is, at least partially, funded by us via taxes.
The spend in this case is five times that (nominally, if not proportionally)
I don’t mean to take this thread OT nor am I trying to bait anyone I shared that conversation with, with this post. Just simply highlighting a quantitive cost within a largely qualitative, human story.
Get rid of the statues. Nobody cares. But do it in an orderly manner. But do it.
Get rid of the SCV, the Daughers of the Confederacy and the Daughers of the Mayflower (or something like that). Stop glorifying the past. Live in the present and future.
Everybody loves to claim credit for relatives considered "good or famous" yet nobody claims to be related to deadbeats, bums, criminals or crooks.
Last edited by Mr. Raleigh; 02-13-2020 at 11:11 PM..
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