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Old 12-06-2019, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Where the College Used to Be
2,390 posts, read 945,169 times
Reputation: 1852

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
No not really....but maybe a little appreciation for where these people who have a float in the parade come from and have called their home for generations is in order.
I appreciate history as much as just about anyone. In fact if I could have found a way to make a living "in it" I would have. Within the appropriate time and place, history should be discussed/relived with all its glory and its worts. In this context, some of my favorite books on the period (Company Aytch, the Civil War: A Narrative Trilogy, Mary Chestnut's Diary, E.A. Porter's Memoir) were written by Southerners more recently (Shelby Foote) or by Confederates at the time (Sam Watkins, Mary Chestnut and Edward A Porter); I have great appreciation and knowledge (which I am constantly trying to gain more of) of the period.

But the question still remains. What does the SCV/UDC have to do with Christmas? As I asked in my first post in this thread, shouldn't the parade be a vehicle to bring people together during the season? Why include a group that is seen as divisive to a good portion of the population? I mean for all the people (more broadly, not on this board specifically) who claim there is a "War on Christmas" and would point to this as perhaps another example....things don't happen in a vaccum. I have zero support for the "outside agitators", but I am also not stubborn enough to realize that they just didn't decide they were going to protest the parade on a whim in teeny, way out there, Wake Forest. They represent an reaction to a previously made choice.

As Vivian Jones said (in so many words) after the Brunch Bill passed (right when we moved here, and was my first exposure to her) "....our town has people from all walks of life, backgrounds and places. How we administer the town should reflect that"

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
WF is quickly becoming a suburb of NJ, so I guess they will soon push most of the locals out and we won't have this annoying problem anymore!
And that would make WF different than Cary, Apex, Holly Springs how exactly? Isn't NC the first state in the country where the Non Native Adult population is larger than the Native adult population?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
I'm not from here either...moved for the COL and economic climate. We have done well here. But I haven't attempted to ram down my views on my neighbors who have spent generations here.
I fail to see (ignoring the outside agitators because they aren't local either) how questioning why a Christmas parade aimed at kids would include the SCV/UDC is equal to "ram down my views on my neighbors"?

If NC natives (or natives of any other Southern State) want to celebrate their ancestors who took up arms in the 19th century in defense of their country (State), they absolutely should. Even if they want to do so from the context of the Lost Cause, they are free to do so.

But they can't get all butthurt when someone points out, as our 18th POTUS so aptly put it, "I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us."

Last edited by GVoR; 12-06-2019 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Where the College Used to Be
2,390 posts, read 945,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedLife View Post
I completely agree that the SoC doesn't really have a place in a Christmas parade. I'm generally not a fan, but also have to acknowledge there is a difference between the SoC and other organizations that go further (like the KKK). However.... if a city were to ban all politically affiliated groups from parades in order to avoid this sort of issue (and I realize they probably don't have the right to do that, but just conjecturing here) -- wouldn't parades lose a lot of participants? Because it seems like there are a lot of organizers for political candidates (especially in election years) that participate (I no longer live in NC so my perspective might be off, as memories of all parades begin to blur together -- here there are no SoC chapters but certainly a lot of involvement of political parties in parades). And connected to that, the ban should probably extend to all churches too, since many disagree with various beliefs that they would represent. And also any organization that concentrates on one specific type of cause/interest to the exclusion of others, because that could be deemed offense/exclusionary. And so on and so forth. So although I might initially personally favor the idea of a ban of a group like this, I can see the logical end to it as well. One (or, quite frankly, most people) might not agree with the viewpoints of the SoC, but I think any sort of official ban in the name of tolerance would actually go down a path that would be ruinous to all in the end.

But we'll probably go down that path anyway. Seems the way of the world now.
Good thoughtful post. If I may reply, why not have the parade just be about local kids related groups?

You could have the parade be the local dance studio, theater troop, Little League baseball, Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, the local chamber of commerce, the mayor, the Police/Fire Department and the like and still probably pull off a good parade that achieves it's goal without all the ancillary noise.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:24 PM
 
13,687 posts, read 23,913,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
I appreciate history as much as just about anyone. In fact if I could have found a way to make a living "in it" I would have. Within the appropriate time and place, history should be discussed/relived with all its glory and its worts. In this context, some of my favorite books on the period (Company Aytch, the Civil War: A Narrative Trilogy, Mary Chestnut's Diary, E.A. Porter's Memoir) were written by Southerners more recently (Shelby Foote) or by Confederates at the time (Sam Watkins, Mary Chestnut and Edward A Porter); I have great appreciation and knowledge (which I am constantly trying to gain more of) of the period.
I find history interesting because it can be a good predictor of the future.

Quote:
But the question still remains. What does the SCV/UDC have to do with Christmas? As I asked in my first post in this thread, shouldn't the parade be a vehicle to bring people together during the season? Why include a group that is seen as divisive to a good portion of the population? I mean for all the people (more broadly, not on this board specifically) who claim there is a "War on Christmas" and would point to this as perhaps another example....things don't happen in a vaccum. I have zero support for the "outside agitators", but I am also not stubborn enough to realize that they just didn't decide they were going to protest the parade on a whim in teeny, way out there, Wake Forest. They represent an reaction to a previously made choice.
It's a valid question. Apparently they have been attending for quite some time, so there is some historical precedence here. But this group (I confess I am actually a "son of the confederate" haha even though I have never bothered to look into it) was not always divisive. They have been around a long time and only recently have they been demonized and associated with white supremacy. Before that, they were more of a genealogical club so to speak, similar to the now current day ancestory.com. At least that is how I took it when my grandparents explained it.

Quote:
I fail to see (ignoring the outside agitators because they aren't local either) how questioning why a Christmas parade aimed at kids would include the SCV/UDC is equal to "ram down my views on my neighbors"?
Questioning is vastly different than protesting a parade for a group you happen to find offensive.

Quote:
If NC natives (or natives of any other Southern State) want to celebrate their ancestors who took up arms in the 19th century in defense of their country (State), they absolutely should. Even if they want to do so from the context of the Lost Cause, they are free to do so.

But they can't get all butthurt when someone points out, as our 18th POTUS so aptly put it, "I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us."
I don't think they got butthurt. The ones wanting to protest their presence got butthurt so they shut it down. I kinda agree with the thought process on that one to be honest.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Where the College Used to Be
2,390 posts, read 945,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
It's a valid question. Apparently they have been attending for quite some time, so there is some historical precedence here. But this group (I confess I am actually a "son of the confederate" haha even though I have never bothered to look into it) was not always divisive. They have been around a long time and only recently have they been demonized and associated with white supremacy. Before that, they were more of a genealogical club so to speak, similar to the now current day ancestory.com. At least that is how I took it when my grandparents explained it.
Yes they apparently have been in this parade (and others) for some time. I don't think anyone is putting them in the class of say the KKK, however selling them as merely a genealogical club is treating them a little softer than they probably should be. SCV and the UDC are leading proponents of the Lost Cause Mythology; romanticizing the "Old South" and all that came with it. These are the same groups that built the majority of the monuments (that went up during the Jim Crow era) that are in the news today. That claim they do it all to remeber heritage, that they don't hate black Americans and that they are honoring those who stood up to Northern aggression. I mean this group has been in case that was heard in front of the Supreme Court of the United States because they wanted the "Confederate Flag" available on License plates.

I'm not calling these guys and gals the devil. But to say they are like an analog version of ancestory.com is underselling their existence quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Questioning is vastly different than protesting a parade for a group you happen to find offensive.
I would agree. My protest would have been to simply not attend the parade (we have plans to head to "the parade" in Faulkner the same day, so this cancellation clears the schedule)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
I don't think they got butthurt. The ones wanting to protest their presence got butthurt so they shut it down. I kinda agree with the thought process on that one to be honest.
I meant butthurt in a more general sense; in the sense of "sure, honor your ancestors, but don't get mad when I point out the cause they actually fought for was so their local leaders could own people as lawnmowers and tvs".

Yes, I would agree that, in this case, the outside agitators are the "butthurt" ones.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:50 PM
 
555 posts, read 363,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
Good thoughtful post. If I may reply, why not have the parade just be about local kids related groups?

You could have the parade be the local dance studio, theater troop, Little League baseball, Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, the local chamber of commerce, the mayor, the Police/Fire Department and the like and still probably pull off a good parade that achieves it's goal without all the ancillary noise.
I know -- wouldn't that be nice? I think it's a lovely idea that would be unrealistic to carry out in practice, however. Besides the fact that parades are generally about pageantry and would lose significant interest from many without inclusion of political and religious organizations (well, at least here in Des Moines, where politics seems to *be* religion at least every four years) -- I think unfortunately even if parades were exclusively about kids and kid-related activities, agitators would eventually find reason for conflict. Dividers gonna divide, in my experience. The vast majority of us, who lean toward "live and let live," are getting tired of it, however.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:27 PM
 
518 posts, read 446,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TarHeelNick View Post
Ok but....the bolded is clearly not the case.

On a lighter note. Looking forward to the Apex Christmas Parade tomorrow. No confederates, no protesters....just a fun, local, seasonal celebration!
Me too! Stay classy Apex!!! I’m so proud that we have no drama or contentious groups!

My general thoughts, not directed at Nick:

Nobody is saying Xmas has to go away. Perhaps it just means being more inclusive to all groups. We had a “pushy rabbi” (my parents words, not mine) in the nice solidly middle class northeastern school that I went to that had a very, very small Jewish population. So we had a menorah in the lobby of the school with the Xmas tree, we sang a few Hanukkah songs at the school concert and made a paper dreidel in art class. This was back in the late 80s, yet many on here seem to be stuck in the 1950s.

Nobody took Xmas away from us, we just learned about other cultures in school and I think that was a good thing.

I hope Wake Forest and Garner can change the rules for who they include in the parades next year. Perhaps it can just involve kids groups, I feel like that was most of what made up the Apex parade anyway!
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:55 AM
Status: "Welcome back Hockey!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Planet Earth
7,870 posts, read 8,815,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiona8484 View Post
Perhaps the pro-confederacy group could have stepped aside and not ruined Xmas for the kiddos?
They could have indeed, but that would be too easy.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:28 AM
 
2,597 posts, read 2,240,609 times
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Why would they need to step aside though when they've participated in these exact parades for a number of years
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Where the College Used to Be
2,390 posts, read 945,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy View Post
Why would they need to step aside though when they've participated in these exact parades for a number of years




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:37 PM
 
592 posts, read 281,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy View Post
Why would they need to step aside though when they've participated in these exact parades for a number of years
Because their presence is divisive and people have finally gotten a strong enough voice to say so.
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