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No, they didn't. Solar energy has been around for a while, I would have thought that by now it was cheaper and more efficient.
Well, actually, you are right. It is cheaper and more efficient that it used to be, but the break-even point is still way longer than the lifetime of the equipment. Government incentives is just a way of getting your neighbors to foot the bill.
Companies can invest in this technology and save money, but the average home owner should not invest in these systems to break even because it won't happen. Typically people do this because they have the resources (money) and want to decrease their footprint on the earth WHILE decreasing utility costs.
While the current round of bailouts and clunker programs are over the top, this country does have a long tradition of providing seed money to new technologies to spur development. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
The link to the calculator clearly shows how the cost model is developed and what the real and subsidized pricing looks like. You may also consider that we're too new to this game to have much system lifetime repair cost data. While the panels should be long lived, I'd be interesting in system level failure data before assuming that an 8 or 10 year payback is a slam dunk.
I'd also be interested in what our realtor friends have experienced with regards to home value. I would assume its a plus, but you do have a certain visual appearance to deal with.
The solar water heating systems are more efficient than PVs but also have additional failure modes to deal with.
Lastly, our friends at Duke University have built a "Smart Home" off Alston Ave near campus. It functions as a dorm to evaluate the practical aspects of energy efficiency. They give tours and its kinda neat. As you might expect, they have a keg cooler ,,,
There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread so I am going to try my best to correct some of it and I'll try to make it as simple as I can. A base 2kw PV system which can provide 30-40% of the electricity used by a typical home costs about $20k installed, it works out to about $10/watt. There are 30% federal tax credits, with no cap after 1/1/2009 and 35% state tax credits with no cap. After taking all of the tax credits and rebates you end up only paying for about 1/3 of the total cost of the system. The typical PV system is grid-tied and you sell all the power back to the utilities under the greenpower program for around $.15kw/hr and you only pay $.10kw/hr. With all of the tax incentives and power buy back numbers taken into consideration, the typical payback will be 7-9 years, and the typical payback period doesn't differ between a 2kw or a 100kw system. If anyone would like to know any information on solar water heating I'll be more than happy to provide that info too.
Mike
This is a great post. I've been heavily researching solar panels for the past 6 months and this information is exactly what I've found. I think it's crazy for someone not to consider solar panels with the amount of incentives that are available. Solar panels are being made cheaper and more effective every year and the power companies will always keep increasing your rates.
The problem I might need to deal with is the fact that the development I live in restricts the installation of solar panels in some way. I need to find out the specifics on this, but I think it's ridiculous to limit the installation of solar panels in any way.
We were going to get a 5.5 kw system but the guy was just here and said he could squeeze a few more up on the roof.
So I just got a quote on a 6.2KW system to sell 100% of it to the grid. It's payback is in 14 years.
The new panels are way more efficient now which means a large output system can now fit on a typical roof. In my case the system will generate based on my roof angle 7512 KW per year. This is factoring weather, loss in conversion, efficiency, my latitude etc.
The way I understand it is that the plan I will be doing is called a sell-all buy-all. A simple explanation is that since you get a premium for solar power when you sell it to the grid. For example, in 2010 I will get a total of 24 cents for every kwh my panels produce while I only spend 11 cents per kwh for what I consume. It will make more sense for me to run my house of the grid like I do now and sell ALL the solar power my panels generate at the premium rate. Some states are higher some less. This means there are two electrical meters, one for consumption, one for the panels. To reiterate, the panels tie to the grid, NOT to the home so the size of the system is more or less irrelevant.
In my case scenario partially due to the roof position the panel system will pay for itself in 14 years. But actually after they are installed my home value supposedly goes up $18,000 which would mean that, after the tax credits which take about 5 years to procure I am zeroed out and start going with a positive cash flow.
The higher electricity gets, the more $$ the panels will generate.
My best guess is that this incentive money wont be around for ever and that electricity prices are going to skyrocket once people start plugging electric cars onto the grid.
So here are my numbers (your will vary, google "PVWATTS" for calculations)
6.2KW to generate 7512 kwh annually
system price 41,500
state tax credits 10,500
Fed tax credits 12,450
NET 18,500
Revenue from SREC and power produced per year $1850
There are some other fees (maintenance and insurance) so it brings payback out to 14 years.
Then at that time, electricity should be higher so we estimate the panels will generate $1700 per year
After all this in my case the rate of return is only 3.9% but if you care about the environment your not doing it just as a financial investment.
Sounds like if you do the sell all, buy all option you avoid the whole battery, storage issue, which I am sure lowers the cost.
Just wondering what happens when the decide to lower the rate at which you get paid for your solar energy? Is the price per kWh locked in for X number of years?
Dear GOD why are we using tax dollars to buy electricity @ 24c when consumers are buying it directly from the utility for 11c?
...snip...
This isn't a rant against the poster but one against our government.
Because the Gov't has the means to invest seed money in this technology. Get it out to enough people, it becomes cheaper, American enginuity and entreprenuerialship (sp?) makes the product better, and in 10-20 years we are actually saving our country lots of money.
If that is not reason enough, then maybe another reason is so that we can curb our dependency on foreign oil, which arguably costs us a heck of a lot more than 11c/kwh when you figure in the cost of all the wars we fight to protect our national interest in said oil. A lot of the same people that diss our gov't for spending tax dollars are the same ones that say "drill baby drill". I am for drilling too, but it is still only a short-term solution to our problem. It is a reactionaly move, and needs to be coupled with some proactive solutions to actually solve the problem, rather than just delaying it. Tying this back to the subject at hand, (and hopefully therefore not getting moderated), investing in solar makes sense in a lot of ways. It can reduce the cost of our power to the general population, it can reduce our carbon footprint, it can enhance our national security while lowering our dependence on foreign oil, and all the while it can have some modest financial benefits to the person installing it on their house.
This thread has been very informative, as I researched this issue a while back and came to the conclusion that it would cost me about $50k+ to install on my house. Now I'm rethinking, and would be willing to invest in this technology at the rates suggested by others in this thread.
Last edited by Bmateo; 10-28-2009 at 05:41 AM..
Reason: added clarity
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Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
), investing in solar makes sense in a lot of ways. It can reduce the cost of our power to the general population, it can reduce our carbon footprint, it can enhance our national security while lowering our dependence on foreign oil, and all the while it can have some modest financial benefits to the person installing it on their house.
