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Old 07-13-2008, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Lowest Taxed/Highest Q.O.L. CARY, NC
551 posts, read 145,839 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren4521 View Post
I interpret your posts as confrontational and not in any tone that actually invites conversation or debate. I personally think that we learn most from dissenting views but stabbing at folks with barbed words for appreciating kindness does nothing of value for anyone IMO. Its not what you say, but how you say it. Disrespect will always mask the validity of any point.

My gosh what is going on that we can't appreciate the time someone took out to help someone, without being called "self serving" for not saving the world or doing enough. And for that matter, why assume you know what each of us does for charity?

Very good points Lauren.

 
Old 07-13-2008, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Some got six month some got one solid. But me and my buddies all got lifetime here
4,550 posts, read 6,532,358 times
Reputation: 2048
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren4521 View Post
I interpret your posts as confrontational and not in any tone that actually invites conversation or debate. I personally think that we learn most from dissenting views but stabbing at folks with barbed words for appreciating kindness does nothing of value for anyone IMO. Its not what you say, but how you say it. Disrespect will always mask the validity of any point.

My gosh what is going on that we can't appreciate the time someone took out to help someone, without being called "self serving" for not saving the world or doing enough. And for that matter, why assume you know what each of us does for charity?
You call my posts confrontational, I call 'em straight to the point. I don't think I've ever minced words in all the time I've posted on here. In fact, if you look back my initial post in this thread wasn't at all confrontational. The initial response to that post was far more confrontational than mine (and some of the posts afterwards), simply because I didn't acknowledge or agree that what that girl did was an "incredible act of kindness".

I suppose because I didn't agree with the general consensus, that made it okay for people to get a few in on me. That's cool, I honestly don't mind. I've got verrry broad shoulders. Don't waste your time lecturing me on how to handle dissenting views. I'll handle my responses the way I see fit and within the guidelines of the TOS (even if just barely ).

Second, I never assumed what anyone here does for charity. Where you got that from, I have no idea. However what was assumed was that this homeless gentleman doesn't have the ability to help himself, not once being given credit that maybe he can. I guess my crime is giving the guy a little more credit than the rest of you have for what he is able to do. Maybe he's mentally ill, maybe he's unable to. Well maybe he's not, yet nobody stopped to think about that one lest it make the girl's act seem just a tad less kind.

There seriously needs some redefining of the word "incredible" when it comes to this particular act of kindness.
 
Old 07-13-2008, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Clayton, NC
850 posts, read 2,165,842 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianH1970 View Post
You call my posts confrontational, I call 'em straight to the point. I don't think I've ever minced words in all the time I've posted on here. In fact, if you look back my initial post in this thread wasn't at all confrontational. The initial response to that post was far more confrontational than mine (and some of the posts afterwards), simply because I didn't acknowledge or agree that what that girl did was an "incredible act of kindness".
I did go back and reread the thread and still disagree with ya on this one. You even stated that your post may come off jaded (and it did)..so why be surprised when the interpretation is as you initially thought?

Quote:
Don't waste your time lecturing me on how to handle dissenting views. I'll handle my responses the way I see fit and within the guidelines of the TOS (even if just barely )
Hey..I'm not lecturing....you posted that no one responded to your points...I was explaining my thoughts on why that was.

Quote:
Second, I never assumed what anyone here does for charity. Where you got that from, I have no idea.
I got it from your post;

Quote:
Instead of possibly donating time and efforts to a homeless shelter or a program to get homeless off the street, the solution is to give the guy some food and leave him on the street????
This makes it an either/or type of thing. Give the man food and be self serving or help him out of homelessness...that makes an assumption that you aren't doing both.

So assuming that we are indeed helping to make change in the world to help the homeless off the streets, how do they eat in the meantime?

Quote:
However what was assumed was that this homeless gentleman doesn't have the ability to help himself, not once being given credit that maybe he can. I guess my crime is giving the guy a little more credit than the rest of you have for what he is able to do. Maybe he's mentally ill, maybe he's unable to. Well maybe he's not, yet nobody stopped to think about that one lest it make the girl's act seem just a tad less kind.
Well, the guy DID have a sign that said, "homeless and hungry". There's short term needs and long term. Not everyone can meet every need of everyone they meet that needs help.

I know that I didn't make that assumption and don't recall seeing it from anyone else. I'm not sure why you think we're not giving this fellow "credit"....because we appreciate when someone helps him? I know how easy it is to become homeless...anyone living paycheck to paycheck is honestly not all that far from it. There's no superiority involved in giving.

Quote:
You know what that girl did in the long run? She gave him every reason to stay on the street, and little reason to get himself off of it and be self sufficient and productive. So few of you see that, the only thing anyone is able to see is the immediate act.
Maybe. And maybe she kept him from starving to death.

Quote:
If you're an animal lover, it's the equivalent of giving a stray cat table scraps yet leaving it out to be run over by a car. What was accomplished aside from the short term warm and fuzzies you got? Absolutely nothing.
My grandmother had a pack of stray cats she fed..hundreds of them. She said it kept them near her and safe while we could find them homes. We named them all and loved them all...and cried when one went missing. We'd gradually get close to the wild ones that had no human contact and tame them....by showing them love and affection. Then we found them homes....one by one. Not all of them, but many of them found loving homes.
Maybe we accomplished nothing, maybe it was self serving but I wouldn't change what we did.

Quote:
You see a woman on the street who was beaten up by her boyfriend. All you do is give her a band aid and send her back inside. Is that the right approach too?
Not sure why you would think this is something anyone here would do. If you are asking what the right approach is for this, I don't know...I'm not a social worker (though I work with LCSWs) BUT I do know that I would not drive away. That I would possibly feed her if needed, take her someplace safe and do what I could to help. Would I invite her to live with me? No...I have the safety of my own family to think about. Would I try to help as best I can, a fellow human being in trouble...you bet.

And BTW this is one reason I initially didn't respond directly to your points....I knew how long it would be! ;0
Lauren
 
Old 07-13-2008, 09:02 PM
 
539 posts, read 1,627,146 times
Reputation: 244
Hey, wouldn't it be great to be able to contact the woman who gave that man the food and let her know about the thought provoking conversation she has started? She would be amazed.

I believe that we are beholden to one another, we are in service to one another. Truly we should work in harmony so that one person provides a meal while another works towards getting someone off of the street. If we all did what we felt called to we could be more helpful than critizing each others efforts. Some people will live their lives on the street. We are not required to judge them but to care for (or about) them. And if life had dealt me the hand of whatever path leads to homelessness I too might resort to drugs or alcohol to cope with whatever chaos led me to that place (mental illness, abuse, etc). Who am I to say? I am not a religious zealot by any means but Jesus did ask us to care for the least of these.
 
Old 07-13-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
10,326 posts, read 17,141,726 times
Reputation: 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren4521 View Post
I did go back and reread the thread and still disagree with ya on this one. You even stated that your post may come off jaded (and it did)..so why be surprised when the interpretation is as you initially thought?



Hey..I'm not lecturing....you posted that no one responded to your points...I was explaining my thoughts on why that was.



I got it from your post;



This makes it an either/or type of thing. Give the man food and be self serving or help him out of homelessness...that makes an assumption that you aren't doing both.

So assuming that we are indeed helping to make change in the world to help the homeless off the streets, how do they eat in the meantime?



Well, the guy DID have a sign that said, "homeless and hungry". There's short term needs and long term. Not everyone can meet every need of everyone they meet that needs help.

I know that I didn't make that assumption and don't recall seeing it from anyone else. I'm not sure why you think we're not giving this fellow "credit"....because we appreciate when someone helps him? I know how easy it is to become homeless...anyone living paycheck to paycheck is honestly not all that far from it. There's no superiority involved in giving.



Maybe. And maybe she kept him from starving to death.



My grandmother had a pack of stray cats she fed..hundreds of them. She said it kept them near her and safe while we could find them homes. We named them all and loved them all...and cried when one went missing. We'd gradually get close to the wild ones that had no human contact and tame them....by showing them love and affection. Then we found them homes....one by one. Not all of them, but many of them found loving homes.
Maybe we accomplished nothing, maybe it was self serving but I wouldn't change what we did.



Not sure why you would think this is something anyone here would do. If you are asking what the right approach is for this, I don't know...I'm not a social worker (though I work with LCSWs) BUT I do know that I would not drive away. That I would possibly feed her if needed, take her someplace safe and do what I could to help. Would I invite her to live with me? No...I have the safety of my own family to think about. Would I try to help as best I can, a fellow human being in trouble...you bet.

And BTW this is one reason I initially didn't respond directly to your points....I knew how long it would be! ;0
Lauren
I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one, Lauren!

Vicki
 
Old 07-13-2008, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Clayton, NC
850 posts, read 2,165,842 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by VickiR View Post
I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one, Lauren!

Vicki
Thanks...and btw great program you have there at the office. I really like helping in a direct way like that. We generally do not give money (time only) to the larger charities as we want what little we have to go directly to the people that need it.

Quote:
Truly we should work in harmony so that one person provides a meal while another works towards getting someone off of the street.
Here here nclover!!!

Lauren
 
Old 07-14-2008, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Some got six month some got one solid. But me and my buddies all got lifetime here
4,550 posts, read 6,532,358 times
Reputation: 2048
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren4521 View Post
I did go back and reread the thread and still disagree with ya on this one. You even stated that your post may come off jaded (and it did)..so why be surprised when the interpretation is as you initially thought?
Wrong on this point. Saying that one is jaded just means that he or she has seen a lot, here's where it's coming from. It doesn't mean that person is expecting flak from a statement. I didn't agree with the general consensus, of course I'm the bad guy. So when some internet knight in shining armor gets a dig on me that everyone can appreciate, he's the good guy and I'm not. That's okay.


Quote:
So assuming that we are indeed helping to make change in the world to help the homeless off the streets, how do they eat in the meantime?
You're still not getting it. You're not giving anyone any incentive to better themselves by handouts. Someone tells you that you better quit smoking or you're gonna die. That's some pretty heady incentive. If someone tells me I'm not getting a thing to eat and I'm gonna starve to death, that's all the incentive I need to pick myself up and become productive again. If I keep getting food handed out to me and I don't have to work for it? Pretty good deal.


Quote:
I didn't make that assumption and don't recall seeing it from anyone else. I'm not sure why you think we're not giving this fellow "credit"....because we appreciate when someone helps him?
Because all I heard was how many homeless people are mentally ill and are unable to. Far as I know I was the only one here who gave the guy a little more of the benefit of the doubt than most. Like I said, you don't want to hear that maybe he could've helped himself and that this girl was had.



Quote:
Maybe. And maybe she kept him from starving to death.
Let's just say he was that far gone, one meal in that case just prolongs the inevitable. He may still starve to death in a week. What did that meal accomplish? Nothing.


Quote:
My grandmother had a pack of stray cats she fed..hundreds of them. She said it kept them near her and safe while we could find them homes. We named them all and loved them all...and cried when one went missing. We'd gradually get close to the wild ones that had no human contact and tame them....by showing them love and affection. Then we found them homes....one by one. Not all of them, but many of them found loving homes.
Maybe we accomplished nothing, maybe it was self serving but I wouldn't change what we did.
And at least you're the first person who's indirectly agreed with me that it's better to help someone get on their feet long term as opposed to one single meal and be forgotten.


Quote:
Not sure why you would think this is something anyone here would do. If you are asking what the right approach is for this, I don't know...I'm not a social worker (though I work with LCSWs) BUT I do know that I would not drive away. That I would possibly feed her if needed, take her someplace safe and do what I could to help. Would I invite her to live with me? No...I have the safety of my own family to think about. Would I try to help as best I can, a fellow human being in trouble...you bet.
Then you agree with me again.

A single meal for someone who doesn't do the things to help himself is nothing more than a band aid to his problem.

An "incredible act of kindness"?? Not really.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 05:24 AM
 
539 posts, read 1,627,146 times
Reputation: 244
BrianH1970, I don't think you are the "bad guy" here. I think your goal is compassionate. I do think you are oversimplfying the issue of homelessness. Most people are motivated to not be homeless before you decide to give them a meal or not. They are well into their journey of seeking help, getting help, rejecting help, addicition, illness or whatever. You are not the last stop on the road. I don't see how offering a small act of compassion would deter someone from that path. Those small acts of compassion strung together might give someone the lift they needed to continue seeking help. However, I can't imagine a homeless person finding one meal, one dollar or a kind word enough comfort to think the streets are a good place to stay. They already have their motivation. It is hunger, cold, discomfort, danger, shame, etc. They have challenges in the form of mental illness, abusive families, addictions, etc. that THANK GOD we don't have. A meal will comfort not only them but all of us as well.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Wake Forest, NC
1,032 posts, read 2,247,000 times
Reputation: 216
Not every kid on free/reduced lunch has no food on the weekends. My hairdresser, for example utilizes reduced lunch for her kids (whole other story) and I know they get food on evenings and also Saturday and Sunday.

Its a shame the free/reduced lunch system gets abused, it spoils it for the truly needy. My daughter (high school ) tells me stories almost daily of kids getting free/reduced lunch then having plenty of $$$ for cookies and snacks...

]
 
Old 07-14-2008, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Morrisville, NC
286 posts, read 680,740 times
Reputation: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by nclover View Post
BrianH1970, I don't think you are the "bad guy" here. I think your goal is compassionate. I do think you are oversimplfying the issue of homelessness. Most people are motivated to not be homeless before you decide to give them a meal or not. They are well into their journey of seeking help, getting help, rejecting help, addicition, illness or whatever. You are not the last stop on the road. I don't see how offering a small act of compassion would deter someone from that path. Those small acts of compassion strung together might give someone the lift they needed to continue seeking help. However, I can't imagine a homeless person finding one meal, one dollar or a kind word enough comfort to think the streets are a good place to stay. They already have their motivation. It is hunger, cold, discomfort, danger, shame, etc. They have challenges in the form of mental illness, abusive families, addictions, etc. that THANK GOD we don't have. A meal will comfort not only them but all of us as well.

Yeah I agree. The issue is being oversimplified and really has very little to do with whether or not homeless people have the "motivation." If you really do believe that the majority of homeless individuals are mentally ill it's quite illogical to go back and say that they just need the motivation to work.
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