Cary Fact or Fiction.........the real deal. (Raleigh, Durham: section 8, renting)

[sneezecake]

Originally Posted by Dire Wolf

Can you point me to this "FACTUAL EVIDENCE" that is undeniable?
Something that actually does an apples-to-apples type comparison between homes in Wake County - say homes in good subdivisions from the 1990s, that have like-ranked good schools, similar commutes, etc.

My experience recently helping a coworker look for a home in Wake County convenient to RTP (which basically means Cary or North Raleigh) doesn't really show that Cary is any more expensive than N. Raleigh.

I don't disagree with you here regarding North Raleigh, that's why I've been very careful to say "as a city/town" - sure you can find a neighborhood in any city...heck probably even Fayetteville, where the house at a certain price point is more expensive than a selected Counterpart from Cary....but when viewing Raleigh as a whole, there are more affordable housing options than Cary.

Same goes for Hope Valley in Durham, maybe Heritage in Wake Forest, but my point is that let's assume someone is fixated on living in one of the following cities (be it for whatever reason....schools, taxes, water, who knows)

Cary
Durham
Raleigh
Wake Forest
Clayton
Fuquay
H.S.
Chapel Hill
Apex
Garner

And they have $195k to spend only....in what city will they be most likely to find the nicest house and/or the most options in their range, and in which one will they be least likely?

The two that jump out where the fewest options would be available are Cary and Chapel Hill.

Again, I am absolutely not saying that you can't find an affordable home in Cary, but for better or for worse, a buyer's best chances of having the greatest selection and quality of homes at these low price points are likely in other towns/cities.

How many people here live in homes that would currently sell for under $200k, and how many of you live in Cary?

[Funky Chicken]

Originally Posted by Bull City Rising

I absolutely agree that affordable housing exists in Cary, yes. My question is, though, that if the percentage of people living below the Federal poverty line in Cary is one-third of that in surrounding cities... does that not imply that there are fewer affordable housing units than in those cities, and/or that the average rental rate or housing cost is higher than those cities? Or is there another factor I've missed?



So are policies in places like suburban Boston and Long Island that set hefty minimum lot sizes as a way of raising the property values, i.e., keeping the riff-raff out. So too are policies in places like this that have town-based rather than county schools -- creating disparities in school options between rich and poor towns.

When you compare our area to Boston or Long Island (and obviously many transplants are from that area), the point that tends to get missed is a geographical one.

Boston is a Port City. There is nothing but water to the East. It's also a very old city. Residential development has been going on so long that there really isn't any land within any sort of reasonable commute to Boston where you could just choose to put up a subdivision of, say, 200 homes. Also understand that by Boston standards a reasonable commute could be as long as an hour and a half each way-many Boston commuters actually live in New Hampshire!

Long Island is like a land-locked hot dog. It developed from west to east, with the western end looking a lot more urban than suburban. Again there is no developable land to speak of within any sort of reasonable distance of NYC (the employment center for most of Long Island). There are trains, but again the 1 1/2 hour commute each way tends to be the rule.

Now look at the Triangle. If you look at the area not knowing what is where in terms of development and you want to be in the most central location, the answer is West Cary. Just about equidistant from Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill, close to I-40, close to RDU, and VERY close to the main employment center, RTP.

The only thing is that the bulk of the land in arguably the most central and desirable location in the entire Triangle was nothing but Tobacco Farms as recently as 15 years ago. For whatever reason(s), our area developed as if a bunch of kids playing pin the tail on the donkey decided where people should live as the population grew.

Now here come all of us northerners. We are sick of long commutes, and our home budget in the mid 1990s was higher than the average home price here by quite a bit. Boom. Instant upper end housing market with a strong desire to live near RTP. West Cary is born.

When I relocated to this area, I moved to Cary Park in spring 2003. I went to work with quite a few native Caryites (yes they do exist). As I got to know them they started asking the inevitable questions. When I told them where I lived they looked at me like I had 3 heads-"there are PEOPLE out that far" ???
Green Level to Durham Road was ONE LANE and GRAVEL from Carpenter Fire Station all the way to Green Level Church Road-it was virtually impassable for a car. Go drive that road today and try to imagine that only 5 years ago there was NOTHING there. NOTHING.

Most Northern Cities developed in an orderly fashion-outward from the big city. Here we have 3 (or 4 counting Cary given its population of over 100,000) good sized cities that had 360 degrees of room for expansion and we grew in a much more random manner. Some might say that the "best" locations developed much later than others, and the newest locations support the more expensive homes and buyers that seem to polarize this forum and create the impression that Cary is nothing but rich people.

[sneezecake]

Unrelated question:

Who is behind the "Stop Cary" campaign - is it residents who don't want to see their town changing, or is it Morrisville or non-incorporated area residents who don't want to be annexed?

I have to say that Cary and Morrisville are two of the oddest towns/cities I have ever seen mapped.

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by Funky Chicken

Most Northern Cities developed in an orderly fashion-outward from the big city. Here we have 3 (or 4 counting Cary given its population of over 100,000) good sized cities that had 360 degrees of room for expansion and we grew in a much more random manner. Some might say that the "best" locations developed much later than others, and the newest locations support the more expensive homes and buyers that seem to polarize this forum and create the impression that Cary is nothing but rich people.

This has been going on way longer than you newcomers have been here. Look back to the times when newcomers moved into the far flung exurbs of Lochmere, McGregor and Preston and you'd see the same sort of argument.

[Funky Chicken]

Originally Posted by sneezecake

Unrelated question:

Who is behind the "Stop Cary" campaign - is it residents who don't want to see their town changing, or is it Morrisville or non-incorporated area residents who don't want to be annexed?

I have to say that Cary and Morrisville are two of the oddest towns/cities I have ever seen mapped.

Stop Cary started in a neighborhood called Dutchman Downs-it borders Ten-Ten, Holly Springs and Penny Roads. The neighborhood is a "doughnut hole"-land within county limits only, but surrounded on all sides by land that had previously been annexed into one town or the other. The residents like their low taxes and don't necessarily want to tie into Cary's water/sewer system (expensive). They live in this cool little oasis with nice sized lots, plenty of trees, and they want things to be left alone.

The organization has spread to other areas that border Cary and are in a similar landlocked position. I sympathize with the residents, and the position they are in is a result of the conversion of rural/farmland to residential land in a completely random manner as I described above.

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by sneezecake

Unrelated question:

Who is behind the "Stop Cary" campaign - is it residents who don't want to see their town changing, or is it Morrisville or non-incorporated area residents who don't want to be annexed?.

The latter. Non-incorporated residents don't want to be taxed to pay for Cary's expansion that they didn't ask for in the first place. Not that I agree or disagree, but it's what their web site claims.

www.stopcary.com - fighting for self-determination

Edit - Dang, beaten by a Chicken

[Funky Chicken]

Originally Posted by KCfromNC

This has been going on way longer than you newcomers have been here. Look back to the times when newcomers moved into the far flung exurbs of Lochmere, McGregor and Preston and you'd see the same sort of argument.

Absolutely correct.
I think the difference is in the sheer numbers of people added to Cary's population.
MacGregor was first in the 70s.From 1970 to 1980 Cary's population about TRIPLED, but the 1970 number was only 7,640 people.
Lochmere was next in the 80s. From 1980 to 1990 Cary's population Doubled, but the base number in 1980 was only 21,763.
Preston was the last of those 3, beginning in 1989 +/-. From 1990 to 2000 Cary's population again doubled, but this time the beginning number was 43,858.
From 2000 to 2007 the gain has been a much lower percentage (33%), but that's 33% more than the 2000 number of 94,536. For comparisons sake, from 2000 to 2007 Cary added as many people as the 2007 population of the entire town of Apex.

[lamishra]

Originally Posted by sneezecake

I don't disagree with you here regarding North Raleigh, that's why I've been very careful to say "as a city/town" - sure you can find a neighborhood in any city...heck probably even Fayetteville, where the house at a certain price point is more expensive than a selected Counterpart from Cary....but when viewing Raleigh as a whole, there are more affordable housing options than Cary.

Same goes for Hope Valley in Durham, maybe Heritage in Wake Forest, but my point is that let's assume someone is fixated on living in one of the following cities (be it for whatever reason....schools, taxes, water, who knows)

Cary
Durham
Raleigh
Wake Forest
Clayton
Fuquay
H.S.
Chapel Hill
Apex
Garner

And they have $195k to spend only....in what city will they be most likely to find the nicest house and/or the most options in their range, and in which one will they be least likely?

The two that jump out where the fewest options would be available are Cary and Chapel Hill.

Again, I am absolutely not saying that you can't find an affordable home in Cary, but for better or for worse, a buyer's best chances of having the greatest selection and quality of homes at these low price points are likely in other towns/cities.

How many people here live in homes that would currently sell for under $200k, and how many of you live in Cary?

I do. And I realize I could live for less in Knighdale or Garner or wherever and there might be more options available. But I don't want to live that far out. I didn't pick Cary for the prestige (or whatever). I found a house in my lower end price range in an unbelieveablly central location and ran with it. In fact, I still remember us Raleighites picking on kids who lived in Cary because we thought they were total rednecks!!!! (not that that was very nice).

There are a few houses for sale in my n'hood right now for under 200K. As I mentioned before, most of the people in my neighborhood are pretty much staying put once they move in. There is not a big turnover here because honestly, it's getting harder and harder to find a decent house in a good neighborhood with low crime and good schools ANYWHERE in the triangle for under 200K.

[jjp4]

Originally Posted by lamishra

I do. And I realize I could live for less in Knighdale or Garner or wherever and there might be more options available. But I don't want to live that far out. I didn't pick Cary for the prestige (or whatever). I found a house in my lower end price range in an unbelieveablly central location and ran with it. In fact, I still remember us Raleighites picking on kids who lived in Cary because we thought they were total rednecks!!!! (not that that was very nice).

There are a few houses for sale in my n'hood right now for under 200K. As I mentioned before, most of the people in my neighborhood are pretty much staying put once they move in. There is not a big turnover here because honestly, it's getting harder and harder to find a decent house in a good neighborhood with low crime and good schools ANYWHERE in the triangle for under 200K.

Totally agree with what you said. My wife and I live ITB near downtown, so Cary isn't really my cup of tea. But, it does remind me of the old saying that "I would rather be the worst house in a great neighborhood, then the nicest house in a bad neighborhood"

[theS5]

Unfortunately, for the citizens of Dutchman, they are slated for annexation sometime in the next few years. Signed, sealed and delivered.

Originally Posted by Funky Chicken

Stop Cary started in a neighborhood called Dutchman Downs-it borders Ten-Ten, Holly Springs and Penny Roads. The neighborhood is a "doughnut hole"-land within county limits only, but surrounded on all sides by land that had previously been annexed into one town or the other. The residents like their low taxes and don't necessarily want to tie into Cary's water/sewer system (expensive). They live in this cool little oasis with nice sized lots, plenty of trees, and they want things to be left alone.

The organization has spread to other areas that border Cary and are in a similar landlocked position. I sympathize with the residents, and the position they are in is a result of the conversion of rural/farmland to residential land in a completely random manner as I described above.