Cary Fact or Fiction.........the real deal. (Raleigh, Durham: mcmansion, apartments)

[In & Out]

Originally Posted by metro.m

Cary is not all that affordable for people who are from here. Most of the people moving to Cary profited from the enormous jump in equity in larger cities.

There are many people in many towns around here that profited from homes in other parts of the country. See Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, etc. Remember, I lived in Durham first.

Originally Posted by metro.m

Cary does not come off as a town or a city to me. It's just a large sprawling mass of subdivisions and shopping centers.

When people say sprawl, they are using the wrong term sometimes. Cary is the opposite of sprawl. Cary is HUGE, but they have divided into sections when planned. So basically each section is self sufficient with its own stores, medical and dining. Cary is the model of how towns should be planned. Sprawl is like back in MA when each home had multiple acres and everyone had to drive 45 minutes to get to the grocery store, then drive 20 minutes to get lunch. I was putting on 30,000 miles a year on my car. Now, I put on 6500.

Originally Posted by metro.m

I love the fact anyone moves to NC! Welcome!

I am glad there is agreement on this.

Originally Posted by metro.m

Cary is heavily dependent on Raleigh from entertainment to employment. The only places that could say their independent in this area is Raleigh and Durham.

Total fiction. Everything I need is here. I seek no entertainment in Raleigh or Durham. I am an outdoorsy person, so I much prefer Cary's setting to the city. My dining, shopping, doctor & dentists are all in Cary, most within 2 miles from me. SAS is a Mega employer in Cary and there are hundreds of others. Jobs are incredibly abundant here. People drive from Raleigh & Durham to work here, also. The road works both ways. I have a tiny drive to work in RTP. I will stop by Southpoint once in a while at lunch as it is close. So I and many others have no dependency on the cities of Raleigh or Durham. There are people that like cities and that is great for them. I have no use for any kind of city living. It is not my thing. I feel closed in, so I prefer more of a country setting with lots of Amenities. See Cary.

[metro.m]

Originally Posted by tlh1005

I went to school with some of that "old money" and much of that population is retired and moving or unfortunately passing away. ITB is becoming "new money" as anywhere else. It is just as "trendy" to buy a bungalow ITB as it is to buy a new home in Cary. The same types of people who buy in Preston buy a home ITB for $600k only to tear it down. Nothing is wrong with doing either.

I wouldn't say their exactly the same people. One loves natural and historic beauty, the other loves tan strip malls.

Seriously. Some of the yuppies invading downtown have no respect for surrounding neighborhoods.

[metro.m]

Originally Posted by In & Out

There are many people in many towns around here that profited from homes in other parts of the country. See Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, etc. Remember, I lived in Durham first.



When people say sprawl, they are using the wrong term sometimes. Cary is the opposite of sprawl. Cary is HUGE, but they have divided into sections when planned. So basically each section is self sufficient with its own stores, medical and dining. Cary is the model of how towns should be planned. Sprawl is like back in MA when each home had multiple acres and everyone had to drive 45 minutes to get to the grocery store, then drive 20 minutes to get lunch. I was putting on 30,000 miles a year on my car. Now, I put on 6500.



I am glad there is agreement on this.



Total fiction. Everything I need is here. I seek no entertainment in Raleigh or Durham. I am an outdoorsy person, so I much prefer Cary's setting to the city. My dining, shopping, doctor & dentists are all in Cary, most within 2 miles from me. SAS is a Mega employer in Cary and there are hundreds of others. Jobs are incredibly abundant here. People drive from Raleigh & Durham to work here, also. The road works both ways. I have a tiny drive to work in RTP. I will stop by Southpoint once in a while at lunch as it is close. So I and many others have no dependency on the cities of Raleigh or Durham. There are people that like cities and that is great for them. I have no use for any kind of city living. It is not my thing. I feel closed in, so I prefer more of a country setting with lots of Amenities. See Cary.

So you never come to Raleigh? So if Raleigh never existed, Cary would still be what it is today? Hows that Raleigh water?

It's a suburb!

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

Originally Posted by metro.m

I wouldn't say their exactly the same people. One loves natural and historic beauty, the other loves tan strip malls.

Which one likes which?

I know wealthy natives who live in Bedford in N. Raleigh and I know transplants of means living in Oakwood in Downtown Raleigh. Who would have thunk it!

[In & Out]

Originally Posted by metro.m

So you never come to Raleigh? So if Raleigh never existed, Cary would still be what it is today? Hows that Raleigh water?

It's a suburb!

I don't know how the Raleigh water is. Raleigh gets its water from Falls Lake. Cary gets its water from Jordan Lake, which is in Chatham County.

Yes, Cary is a suburb. I love the suburbs. I would never ever consider living in a cities downtown. Not my thing. Fine for others.

Raleigh, Durham and Cary have a joint relationship. We all benefit from each other. None is "totally" dependent on the other.

[In & Out]

Originally Posted by metro.m

I wouldn't say their exactly the same people. One loves natural and historic beauty, the other loves tan strip malls.

Most of the strip malls are made of brick. Bricks are red, not tan.

[Bull City Rising]

Originally Posted by MikeJaquish

BCR,
I know that is not (precisely) what you meant. It was fun turning your post on its head. That's why the big old .
On the other hand, I think your composition was a somewhat demeaning back of the hand to Cary residents. I would propose the higher incomes in Cary provide a much higher net revenue to local, state, and federal coffers than those in some other Triangle municipalities.

Hi Mike,

At the risk of dragging this thread any further...

I understand where you're coming from in re how the post may have come across; I didn't mean it that way (really!) but I do recognize that Cary is up there with Durham as places that get more flak than just about any town in the Triangle, well more than either deserve.

It's really hard to get across the point I'm trying to make without it coming across as elitist or whathaveyou, or as attacking Cary, and I'm tempted not to try. After all, this is an issue much-much-MUCH bigger than one city, or te Triangle, or NC. But, hey, one last shot!

Let's pretend that there are two worlds. In World A, cities and towns have populations (overall, and by neighborhoods) that are economically integrated. In World B, there are wealthier towns and poorer towns.

If crime... school quality... health... access to employment... and so forth were the same in World A and World B, I'd say it didn't matter which world we lived in.

But data on these factors tend to show that the outcomes aren't the same. Crime is worse in socioeconomically segregated areas -- in areas with mixed-income, like gentrifying neighborhoods, there are more residents who aren't afraid or cynical about calling cops. Schools are worse in poorer areas -- there aren't as many parents with time or perhaps inclination to be involved in the PTA. Employment isn't there -- how many banks, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. do you see in the inner city?

In World B, the overall social cost for such services is higher -- aggregating together wealthy and non-wealthy towns -- than it would be in World A.

A person living in Cary might pay more in local, state and federal taxes than someone in other towns, I agree. But the net social cost of economic segregation affects what all of us pay for crime (states pay for jails; persons who don't complete school are more likely to get caught up in crime), social services (welfare, food stamps, etc.), and so forth.

This is what I was trying to get at, without this being a Cary good/Cary bad argument. 'Cause, again, this affects all of us, regardless of where we live.

I appreciate the sense that people work hard to accomplish what they want, and want to choose their own lifestyle, and that's great. I do think it's worth keeping in mind, though, that the social structures that allow towns like Cary, Rolesville, Butner, Durham, etc. to exist aren't pure creations of the free market. Governments decide land use; the presence of utilities; the nature of development; the density of housing; and so forth.

Which is to say, the creation of wealthy towns and poorer towns occurs because of choices people themselves make, yes, but also due to decisions that governments do, and don't, choose to make. (Cf. Knightdale's pronouncement last year to discourage any new housing units that would be at prices above the town's median value.)

And I think people will always choose to live in the nicest houses, the nicest neighborhoods, etc. But government -- which bears the brunt of fixing social ills that have roots in economic segregation -- has every right to push policies that avoid a tragedy of the commons scenario, which is exactly what this is. (That is, a situation where optimal outcomes for every individual lead to a suboptimal societal outcome.) Which is why I really want to see cities -- including Durham, which is behind on this too -- push inclusionary zoning, incentives for integrating subsidized and market rate housing, etc.

This ain't some sociology mumbo-jumbo. There's a couple of decades of data showing this approach makes sense.

Anyhoo, sorry to get swept up in the Cary discussion (which, goodness, has been painful to read.) This conversation would be much more fun over beers. Tell me when and where, I'm buying!

[tlh1005]

Originally Posted by metro.m

I wouldn't say their exactly the same people. One loves natural and historic beauty, the other loves tan strip malls.

Seriously. Some of the yuppies invading downtown have no respect for surrounding neighborhoods.

I don't believe this is true as one of the reasons I commonly hear that residents love Cary is the Park system. There are a multitude of people who like having bike lanes and being close to Bond park among others. Some people also just like the golf in Preston, the swim clubs at Lochmere, or the symphony at Regency.

[In & Out]

Originally Posted by Bull City Rising

Hi Mike,

At the risk of dragging this thread any further...

I understand where you're coming from in re how the post may have come across; I didn't mean it that way (really!) but I do recognize that Cary is up there with Durham as places that get more flak than just about any town in the Triangle, well more than either deserve.

It's really hard to get across the point I'm trying to make without it coming across as elitist or whathaveyou, or as attacking Cary, and I'm tempted not to try. After all, this is an issue much-much-MUCH bigger than one city, or te Triangle, or NC. But, hey, one last shot!

Let's pretend that there are two worlds. In World A, cities and towns have populations (overall, and by neighborhoods) that are economically integrated. In World B, there are wealthier towns and poorer towns.

If crime... school quality... health... access to employment... and so forth were the same in World A and World B, I'd say it didn't matter which world we lived in.

But data on these factors tend to show that the outcomes aren't the same. Crime is worse in socioeconomically segregated areas -- in areas with mixed-income, like gentrifying neighborhoods, there are more residents who aren't afraid or cynical about calling cops. Schools are worse in poorer areas -- there aren't as many parents with time or perhaps inclination to be involved in the PTA. Employment isn't there -- how many banks, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. do you see in the inner city?

In World B, the overall social cost for such services is higher -- aggregating together wealthy and non-wealthy towns -- than it would be in World A.

A person living in Cary might pay more in local, state and federal taxes than someone in other towns, I agree. But the net social cost of economic segregation affects what all of us pay for crime (states pay for jails; persons who don't complete school are more likely to get caught up in crime), social services (welfare, food stamps, etc.), and so forth.

This is what I was trying to get at, without this being a Cary good/Cary bad argument. 'Cause, again, this affects all of us, regardless of where we live.

I appreciate the sense that people work hard to accomplish what they want, and want to choose their own lifestyle, and that's great. I do think it's worth keeping in mind, though, that the social structures that allow towns like Cary, Rolesville, Butner, Durham, etc. to exist aren't pure creations of the free market. Governments decide land use; the presence of utilities; the nature of development; the density of housing; and so forth.

Which is to say, the creation of wealthy towns and poorer towns occurs because of choices people themselves make, yes, but also due to decisions that governments do, and don't, choose to make. (Cf. Knightdale's pronouncement last year to discourage any new housing units that would be at prices above the town's median value.)

And I think people will always choose to live in the nicest houses, the nicest neighborhoods, etc. But government -- which bears the brunt of fixing social ills that have roots in economic segregation -- has every right to push policies that avoid a tragedy of the commons scenario, which is exactly what this is. (That is, a situation where optimal outcomes for every individual lead to a suboptimal societal outcome.) Which is why I really want to see cities -- including Durham, which is behind on this too -- push inclusionary zoning, incentives for integrating subsidized and market rate housing, etc.

This ain't some sociology mumbo-jumbo. There's a couple of decades of data showing this approach makes sense.

Anyhoo, sorry to get swept up in the Cary discussion (which, goodness, has been painful to read.) This conversation would be much more fun over beers. Tell me when and where, I'm buying!

The problem with a lot of arguments like this is that Cary "is" accessible to just about everyone. There are thousands of affordable apartments and some that are subsidized in Cary. So people that are economically challenged can rent at first. Also, I previously posted that there are a number of very inexpensive homes that can be purchased. Again, different than the fiction that some people believe. Not to try to get to political, but the government should stay out of trying to be the diversifier's of population. Let people live where they want to. Don't force things on people. If pockets of Durham or Raleigh have issues with economically challenged population and the problems it brings with it, fix it at its source. Don't try to dilute it and make it less apparent by force feeding some of it to each town in the area. That is just masking the problem.

[sneezecake]

Originally Posted by In & Out

The problem with a lot of arguments like this is that Cary "is" accessible to just about everyone. There are thousands of affordable apartments and some that are subsidized in Cary. So people that are economically challenged can rent at first. Also, I previously posted that there are a number of very inexpensive homes that can be purchased. Again, different than the fiction that some people believe. Not to try to get to political, but the government should stay out of trying to be the diversifier's of population. Let people live where they want to. Don't force things on people. If pockets of Durham or Raleigh have issues with economically challenged population and the problems it brings with it, fix it at its source. Don't try to dilute it and make it less apparent by force feeding some of it to each town in the area. That is just masking the problem.

A lot of what is discussed in this thread is opinion - blandness, perfection, McMansion, quality of life, etc -and you love Cary, we get it. But one thing that is undeniable and supported by FACTUAL EVIDENCE is that Cary is, as a town, one of the more expensive municipalities in which to live in the triangle area. Not better, not worse, just less affordable...and what you get at any cost is likely going to be less house/land for the money than you would somewhere else...it's that simple.

The fact that you've posted that there are X listings under 200k in Cary means nothing. You can find junk in any market. In Bel Air and Beverly Hills, there are always a certain number of listings WELL BELOW median market prices of neighboring even when compared to nearby and inferior communities.

I promise you if you take a $175k home in Cary and put it alongside a standard offering at that same price in Raleigh, Durham, Wake Forest, Clayton, Fuquay, Holly Springs, etc etc etc, I can PROMISE you that the home in Cary will not compare favorably.

So please, do feel free to continue on your "I love Cary" parade...you have many others driving floats alongside you...but to show a certain number of listings in a certain price range and pretend that this means that Cary is as affordable as the other nearby towns/cities is just flat out incorrect.