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I totally agree with you regarding class-ism and racism being used interchangeably. I think this is a huge social issue that needs to be addressed, among other things.
As a NC native, don't you see the changes that NC has made in regards to segregation? I'm 33 and grew up in Cary. This area is totally different than what it was just 15 years ago. I've seem tremendous change over my lifetime. I'm sure if you go looking, you'll find plenty of closed mind people. I've spent a lot of time in Maryland and have experienced more racism and seen more segregation there than I have in my entire life in North Carolina. I live in Garner in a very diverse neighborhood. While there are still some areas that are either predominately black or white, there's still as much integration here as other parts of the country.
I agree that there have been changes, and I also agree that overall, racism and classism in the Triangle specifically are probably not much worse than anywhere else. I think attitudes have changed somewhat over time, as new generations grow up. I also believe, though, that people here are less likely to be overtly prejudiced than other places, preferring to keep it to themselves or others who are sympathetic or have similar beliefs. I don't know if this is a function of Southern politeness, or the desire to not be associated with the racist Southern stereotype, or what.
Growing up in Garner (26% black in 2000, and barely in the Triangle) versus growing up in Cary (6% black) is probably somewhat different, although I couldn't speculate on specific experience differences. Other than maybe high school football... My mother, who is from very upstate NY, always says that no one was racist where she grew up, because they never saw black people. I always thought that it should be the opposite, in that if you grew up around different races, you would be more likely to minimize it as part of a person.
My mother, who is from very upstate NY, always says that no one was racist where she grew up, because they never saw black people. I always thought that it should be the opposite, in that if you grew up around different races, you would be more likely to minimize it as part of a person.
I think it is both. Having (virtually) NOBODY of a given race (same for religion, sexual orientation, etc) around when you're growing up, there is no "reason" to discriminate because you don't really have any opinions, good or bad, of this group of people. And, as you say, growing up in a very MIXED area, you know from an early age that people are people and good and bad come in every color/stripe/group.
It's the "middle" groups, where people are exposed to some degree of another demographic, just enough to recognize what are stereotyped to be "bad" traits of that group, where the most "isms" occur.
For example, the Asian population in this area has, until pretty recently, been very small. Thus, having grown up here, I don't ever remember ANY anti-Asian racism at all--they just weren't on anyone's radar screen. And, more significantly, there was little anti-Hispanic sentiment, that I recall, until the past decade or so when the migrant population began being seen more. Now, where pretty much everyone sees Hispanics in public places, those prone to stereotyping will have had enough actual mingling with Hispanics to have formed some kind of opinion about them.
I think it is both. Having (virtually) NOBODY of a given race (same for religion, sexual orientation, etc) around when you're growing up, there is no "reason" to discriminate because you don't really have any opinions, good or bad, of this group of people. And, as you say, growing up in a very MIXED area, you know from an early age that people are people and good and bad come in every color/stripe/group.
It's the "middle" groups, where people are exposed to some degree of another demographic, just enough to recognize what are stereotyped to be "bad" traits of that group, where the most "isms" occur.
For example, the Asian population in this area has, until pretty recently, been very small. Thus, having grown up here, I don't ever remember ANY anti-Asian racism at all--they just weren't on anyone's radar screen. And, more significantly, there was little anti-Hispanic sentiment, that I recall, until the past decade or so when the migrant population began being seen more. Now, where pretty much everyone sees Hispanics in public places, those prone to stereotyping will have had enough actual mingling with Hispanics to have formed some kind of opinion about them.
Having grown up here, I totally agree. My best friend growing up was of hispanic descent and I swear I just don't remember anyone having anti-hispanic attitudes they way people seem to now. Same with Asians.
I have an opinion about racial diversity. It doesn't make nor break a neighborhood. I can give a rat's behind what racial makeup people are as long as those people are kind, understanding and respectful of their fellow human.
With that said, diversity is a great thing providing such diversity enhances the neighborhood one lives. I'm not just referring to racial diversity, but diverse backgrounds in general. I certainly do not want to live next door to a person who shares a deviant mistreatment of animals or people. It's diverse, but not the kind of diversity I prefer living next door.
Racial diversity is beneficial. However in my opinion. I see no benefit in acknowledging another person's racial makeup if they provide no understanding of their racial heritage or contributes any such diverse cultural differences to another person's life. In other words, if the only difference between me and another person is the color of their skin (thus potentially indicating the race they belong), then they are just another person with an individual personality that I either like or dislike.
As I mentioned, I am not so much concerned about racial makeup as much as I am concerned about personality and that personality's ability to make for a stable or improved neighborhood. Diversity for the sake of diversity is pointless. Diversity for the sake of adding to one's way of life is priceless.
So, OutofNC has an opinion and a valid one, however subjective. I disagree with his/her assertions that people are NOT open to diversity, especially here in the RDU area. But then again, such people do exist (everywhere) and if met in great numbers can influence a person's perspective to take that position. Perfectly valid.
What I got from OutofNC response was the following:
"I hate the RDU area because there is little to no diversity; no culture because white people have no culture (since it doesn't affect them); that all people from the upper east U.S. stick to their own and are snooty (don't know if that's all but, maybe, just the white ones); and that Raleigh has no night life (maybe because white people and upper east U.S. implants never grew up with that sort of culture). However, the schools are great (maybe the schools need to start teaching people about culture?). Nonetheless, the people of the United States really only care about socializing with other like minded material oriented lifestyle of the rich and famous folk. Segregation is next in line."
I said a lot of that in a sort of forced jest like way but I am a bit offended by a lot of the subjective take OutofNC holds on the RDU area. Again, I think from their perspective, it's a valid interpretation. However, aside from indicating that they have actually attempted to cordial and neighborly with the heathens here, I see they OutofNC really has not acknowledged any internal soul searching he/she has done to find out if something they are doing or has exuded is preventing them from assimilating to RDU life.
I, from sunny and spoiled California, seem to be doing fairly well with the neighbors here (who are quite diverse) in Durham. For that matter, the entire RDU area. However, I had to also acknowledge the bad habits I learned when I was surviving in the world of Angelinos. I can't say that everything is perfect here in my world now whilst living in RDU, but I can say that I have enjoyed the nightlife, the outdoors and the people here mainly because the lifestyle I led in Los Angeles is managed differently than the lifestyle I lead here in Durham. And, frankly, as I mentioned with racial diversity, I try not to acknowledge it so much because the person inside is what really matters. Their stories, experiences and their ability to share and uplift another person's life is what really matters.
And I'm finding that here in RDU.
My response:
Thank you for dissecting and completely missing the point of my comment and how I see this area. Again, I have lived in this area for over 11 years. As far as soul searching, give me a break. I studied theatre arts and music so I have to be open to new ideas and cultures in order to fully understand people. Again, I based my comments on my experience.I have friends all over the country and they didn't like it here either based on the same reasons as I have.
I explained myself very well and do not need your sad interpretation. Your comments were immature and way off because I never said that white people did not have any culture. Many cultural events that are given in this area are sponsored by white people so your comment was rude and makes my points even more valid. I also mentioned that Durham was diverse to a certain degree. I guess you didn't see that either. Or you saw what you wanted to see and based your argument on gibberish.
Many people are very materialistic, not just whites. It seems you're the one with the problem. You made every point I had about hating this area come to life. I hope as people read your comments they understand exactly what I am talking about.
You said "I certainly do not want to live next door to a person who shares a deviant mistreatment of animals or people." What is that suppose to mean? Is your idea of diversity living next to Michael Vick? lol How laughable. That has so many racial overtones! Shame on you.
My definition of cultural diversity: Being able to see past skin color in order to make this country a better place. Treating others that do not look like you with respect and dignity. It should also be reciprocated. It also means having a heart and lending a hand, not just to people who look like you but all people.
This area is lagging behind. The poster asked this question and I was responding to him/her. Not you.
Having grown up here, I totally agree. My best friend growing up was of hispanic descent and I swear I just don't remember anyone having anti-hispanic attitudes they way people seem to now. Same with Asians.
I have to respectfully disagree with you and Francois.
I disagree because my experiences have been different than what you have both experienced. I was on the other side of the majority and while many people were very kind (and didn't appear to notice or care that I was a bit different in terms of how I looked), there were many that purposefully made me feel bad about the fact that I looked different. There were adults and children that made me and my family feel as though we were not as good as everyone else. This is based on the small town in Michigan where I grew up. I moved to a much more diverse area and lived there for 12+ years. Then I moved back to Michigan, but to a bigger, more urban area, only to find that things are not so different just because I went to a bigger town. To some extent it's normal for a dominant race to want to keep up their dominance and "pushing down" on another race is their way to do it. Also, a lack of exposure to other races makes people not understand when they see someone different from them -- they feel threatened. Just because you grow up in an area that is not racially mixed, doesn't mean that you don't form stereotypes and generalizations of another race. Parents have an affect on their children's beliefs and television has a HUGE impact on us from a very young age and many times it's very subtle. I have more understanding of this in children where they are not as exposed and only see stereotyping on television, but as adults it's just ignorance.
This is why I have said to the OP that the Triangle is much more open to diversity than other urban areas where I have visited or lived. In the end I think it has to do with the presence of diversity along with the higher average level of education.
Thank you for dissecting and completely missing the point of my comment and how I see this area. Again, I have lived in this area for over 11 years. As far as soul searching, give me a break. I studied theatre arts and music so I have to be open to new ideas and cultures in order to fully understand people. Again, I based my comments on my experience.I have friends all over the country and they didn't like it here either based on the same reasons as I have.
I explained myself very well and do not need your sad interpretation. Your comments were immature and way off because I never said that white people did not have any culture. Many cultural events that are given in this area are sponsored by white people so your comment was rude and makes my points even more valid. I also mentioned that Durham was diverse to a certain degree. I guess you didn't see that either. Or you saw what you wanted to see and based your argument on gibberish.
Many people are very materialistic, not just whites. It seems you're the one with the problem. You made every point I had about hating this area come to life. I hope as people read your comments they understand exactly what I am talking about.
You said "I certainly do not want to live next door to a person who shares a deviant mistreatment of animals or people." What is that suppose to mean? Is your idea of diversity living next to Michael Vick? lol How laughable. That has so many racial overtones! Shame on you.
My definition of cultural diversity: Being able to see past skin color in order to make this country a better place. Treating others that do not look like you with respect and dignity. It should also be reciprocated. It also means having a heart and lending a hand, not just to people who look like you but all people.
This area is lagging behind. The poster asked this question and I was responding to him/her. Not you.
I live in a very diverse area but am an animal lover.
Nothing to do with ethnicity, but I'd be happy if Mr. Vick were thrown into the lion area at the San Francisco Zoo.
A person who did what Mr. Vick did is beyond loathing.
as for the op's question, I think you will find this area better than wisconsin. i have family in the chicago land area and some who lived in milwaukee. it fascinated me the various & different mentality of people culturally in this country based on regions. milwaukee esp was very hard to get use to. very northeastern in terms of segregation. you have more "ethnic breakdown" along white heritage & people whereas in the south, you don't see "polish" "german" "irish" "scandanavians" segregation in their neighborhoods, etc.
i grew up and lived in the dallas-ft worth area and moved here to raleigh almost ~ 7 yrs ago. at first it was a bit of a culture shock, socially & culturally. many 'modern' conviences i was accustomed to in dallas was not here or done the same way in dallas. everything irked me about nc. the way they spoke, drove on the streets, government, etc. i was just SLOW!!!! LOL. to me, people here in nc seem 'behind' culturally. maybe b/c there aren't many old huge cities in nc, like atlanta or d.c where you have more culture or seeing accomplished people? or i just came from a bigger city where things moved faster???
socially, the people here seem accustomed to that "old south" mentality in their way of doing things. they were not use to seeing black people with money or middle class, unlike in atlanta or d.c which have a historically stronger and visible presence of black middle classes & upper class wealth. even blacks who are from here aren't use to seeing it per se unless they themselves left nc to go to atl, d.c or nyc or were a part of it here in nc. durham & wilmington have a strong historical history with regards to black wealth at one time in nc history. nevertheless, when i first moved here you can see in terms of the 'stares' or looks from white people when they see black people wearing nice clothes, shopping in certain stores, eating at upscale restaurants, etc. this is what i mean. it erked the hell outta me! and still does to a certain degree. i know you have that mentality in any place even in big urban cities but here is based more out of ignorance, jealousy or deficient mentality what people 'think' of blacks based on growing up here in nc
i just think many native nc people are not accustomed to people who do things differently, be it your speech, diction, mannerisms, dress/style, decour, however you carry yourself, etc. to them you're just different. i remember people constantly asking me "where are you from?" i didn't understand it but later on, i did. they weren't accustomed to people outside their world or ways of life who didn't carry themselves along the same stereotypical lines they saw on tv or wherever.
nevertheless, i think the more transplants who move in, the more it will educate the people here. b/c black middle & upper middle class people who are accustomed to having or doing certain things will do them here in raleigh. it's really pathetic but you will be amazed how many people will stare if they see black men wearing a designer suit. you take it for granted but you have people who really are not accustomed to seeing that b/c they figure you're like the people they see in their own world.
also, i laugh at people here when i listen or read their version of what's racial segregation. i don't think people here in this area understand the scale of racial segregation compared to living in LARGE metro cities/suburbs like chicago, boston, dc, atlanta, dallas, houston, etc. i think if some natives here in NC visited dallas for example they would come away seeing a different racial segregation on a broader & larger scale. in larger cities, you have entire suburbs & cities or areas of town racially segregated. in raleigh, the scope or scale is much more smaller. you tend to have neighborhoods segregated along racial lines. so think smaller scaled down. i've lived in areas which you didn't always see minorities in grocery stores, or shopping in dept store or eating in restaurants, etc., in dallas unless you got into the car and went 45 min into the city. i just think people here in raleigh don't understand that b/c here the scale or degree of segregation is so smaller. you can hop on the bus or get in your car and be on the other side of raleigh in 15-20 minutes. or you have people of color and various nationalities in so many venues or places
you have to realize that raleigh-durham is NOT some huge metropolitan area. please dont get that image in your mind. i say that b/c so many people i've talked to move here thinking there's nothing but urban sprawl between raleigh & durham. its not. so don't think minneapolis/st. paul or dallas/ft.worth when you here "raleigh-durham". not in the same league
overall this is a nice area and it's not as segregated as compared to what i see or consider segregation. the subdivisions are segregated more along racial lines but not areas of town. you see blacks/whites/latinos just about in every area of raleigh. with that said, i'm trying to leave this place. lol. nothing against raleigh, but just too 'good ol'boy' red conservative. charlotte has passed raleigh by in the dust b/c of the confined mindset of people here, imo.
----------------------------- as for the city sectors/going in a clock-wise motion, starting @ 10o'clock....
NW/Glenwood Ave sector or area is probably more white, in terms of neighborhoods but you see people in these areas. the main mall, Crabtree, is in this area. inside the beltline tends to be more racially polorized with old waspy neighborhoods and revitalized yuppy areas. outside the beltline but in the NW sector you see various incomes. however, the area tend to be considered the more nicer side of raleigh-per se. from downtown going up glenwood ave to brier creek community near the durham border. to me, i see more whites compared to capital blvd but like i said earlier raleigh isn't big enough to be that polarizing. not as congested but the slow traffic is frustrating!!! a professional crowd, or neighborhoods. racially diverse outside the I-440 beltline and not as congested with a bunch of commercial development, traffic like Capital Blvd. a lot much residential.
FAR N RALEIGH - tends to be the area north of I-540/Strickland Rd. Here you will find more whites. Adjacent to the Glenwood sector but further north and not NW from downtown. Upscale subdivisions, more rural, large lots. Falls River Watershed area. Some blacks but neighborhoods are racially polorized
N Raleigh/CAPTIAL BLVD- considered N Raleigh & NE Raleigh if you draw it from the downtown area. located on the other side of north raleigh compared to the glenwood ave area. far NE Raleigh is where you have more upscale areas such as Bedford and Wakefield. the closer you go into downtown the more industrial it is. more minorities in the mini-city area which is the half way point of downtown & the nice far NE subdivisions. home prices and cost of living is cheaper per se, with exception to Bedford & Wakefield. many new affordable & nice communities in this area with more black middle class. also a lot of starter home communities dot the landscape b/c this the last area of town to build in.
E Raleigh-SE Raleigh - more blacks/latinos and some whites. far E Raleigh has more of a rural feel as you move further out to Knightdale, which is growing now that the I-540 brings you directly into it from the interstate. However E Raleigh, clsoer in to downtown has much older and historically black neighborhoods. smaller lots and homes per se. there are some middle class older sections along with older historical sections in the Oakwood areas near St. Augustine's College, a historically black college & university. you have many whites who have moved back into Oakwood or revitalized these homes/neigborhoods on certain streets. Oakwood buffers St. Aug's College. Glascock Street, on the other side, has some predominately black old professional neighborhoods & homes built in the 70's & 80's. tend to be older black people who chose to remain in the black community instead of black flight to the white suburbs after desegregation or blacks who've lived in E/SE raleigh most of their life. Tupper Place, is a newer black upper middle class subdivision of ~20 homes in E Raleigh area about 5 min south of St. Aug college. It's very nice and upscale homes in the $300-500 range. it's somewhat smaller but nice to see. it buffers against a older, predominately, black neighborhood with older nice ranch homes with nice manicured lawns. i can't think of the name??? however just outside the area along raleigh blvd/mlk blvd esp going into center downtown you have what most people see as E/SE raleigh, black/latino poor, shot gun house, etc. drugs, prostitutes, etc. most of it is regulated to certain streets such as martin st, bragg st, etc. but people tend to group things together.
FAR SE Raleigh-outter suburbs. tend to be the fastest growing areas. somewhat rural feel as commercial development/stores have been slow to get out to this area. a lot of starter home type communities & racially mixed with whites & blacks.
DOWTOWN-not really that much. you have some revitalization efforts and it is growing with the projects that are proposed. however, it's not really much in terms of booming nightlife. glenwood south is really the only area for clubs. yet i applaud the efforts to wake up and get things going with the new condos, etc & new RBC skyscrapper built. most housing consist of older historical neighborhoods, like boylan heights, oakwood, cameron park & oberlin village, hillsborough street going towards NC State. the south side of downtown is more underdeveloped with poorer areas/public housing area. a lot of crime. tend to be racially more blacks & latinos. older shot gun homes. Shaw University buffers the area to the north. but to me Shaw is more downtown.
South Raleigh- rural, little development, mostly whites. A lot of college students from NC State. close by to Cary. Larger lots but rural feel. i always feel i'm like 100 mi outside of raleigh when i go to that side of town.
West Raleigh- industrial, rural, not much in terms of new development. older neighborhoods, racially mixed. greatly in need of development as well
also, i laugh at people here when i listen or read their version of what's racial segregation. i don't think people here in this area understand the scale of racial segregation compared to living in LARGE metro cities/suburbs like chicago, boston, dc, atlanta, dallas, houston, etc.
you have to realize that raleigh-durham is NOT some huge metropolitan area. please dont get that image in your mind. i say that b/c so many people i've talked to move here thinking there's nothing but urban sprawl between raleigh & durham. its not. so don't think minneapolis/st. paul or dallas/ft.worth when you here "raleigh-durham". not in the same league
I respect your opinion, but you do not have to "laugh" at people's experiences and their examples of racial segregation just because your experience has larger segments of segregation. I don't think people here think that Raleigh/Durham is some huge metroplitan area -- but it may be huge to them depending on where they came from and people are simply sharing those experiences. Not everyone's experiences are yours. Shoot, I've lived in a very small town and have been the only non-white in a grocery store -- that doesn't just happen in large cities. How much more segregated do you get than an entire city? Doesn't that kind of beat (on a technical scale) neighborhood segregation? Also, it's possible to be from a bigger area and still be less worldly and more ignorant than someone who has lived their whole life in a small area.
1. It's not skin color that counts, it's the color of your money
I disagree. For many, your money is "dirty" depending on the color of your skin...not that it still wouldn't be taken.
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My mother, who is from very upstate NY, always says that no one was racist where she grew up, because they never saw black people. I always thought that it should be the opposite, in that if you grew up around different races, you would be more likely to minimize it as part of a person.
I was waiting for you.
