Impressions after my first visit to Raleigh/Duraham. (Durham, Cary: 2009, apartments)

[anotherNYer]

Randomdude and NYer got it right. Yes you can live in certain areas of NY but they are not where many people can work, and yes building up RTP provided jobs and income for many people during the big building boom, not to mention hotels, etc. As I said, NC does not have the exclusive rights to new growth. Also as I drive around there is so much undeveloped land I am surprised when people say how crowded it is here. Yes there are certain areas that are more congested, but traffic is still a relative thing. Overall for many people living here is exactly what they want (including most of you on this forum) and there are many people who wouldn't live here ever. Many cannot understand the true cost of living in NY or NJ unless you experience it. You will just survive and I mean survive if you make $150,000. Not many people make that and we have no say over our taxes going up and up. So yes this area provides a nice comfortable living, that's all most people are looking for.(and just to head anyone off-I know you will say you make less and survive in NY but overall $150,000 is not an exagerration if you ever want to go out or take a trip or pay for college)

[sliverbox]

I lied. I have a bit more to say. Only because there were lots of other comments added. Here's what I find horribly ironic: Almost all of the respondents who wound up defending Raleigh's current situation were those from NY and other Northeastern states. Of course you're going to defend it. You're not from there and since it sounds like NY is basically one giant hell-hole, then of course, its not all that hard to find someplace else to be heaven on earth. At the same time, its interesting that most of those who in some ways agreed with me were from the Southeast. I think that pretty much validates my point, which is that yes, perhaps for people from other more expensive areas, Raleigh is just oh-so-wonderful. But at the same time, you have to flip the coin over and see what the other side has to say. The fact that the bulk of the people on this forum are from the Northeast tells you that Raleigh probably lost its cultural identity a long time ago. It might as well be a refugee city.But like I said before, I've lived in both the Northeast and the West Coast. I get it. I know why people are moving from these places. I don't blame them either. So you have my compassion no doubt.

Then again, I was thinking about this last night. The US has always been a country of flux and population shift. People move to places to better their lives. In 1920, California was one of the most rural, undeveloped states in the country. Come the end of WW2, the place exploded and swiftly became heavily populated. All the choicest cuts of land became bought up by the richest people. By the 70's it became for the most part unaffordable to the middle class. If you look at much of the Northeast, it was the economic powerhouse of the country for generations. But now that its industries have degraded and the cost of living has skyrocketed as its local and state governments seek ways to maintain aged infrastructure, people are seeking other means to survive.

Since the South was for a long time such a completely isolated, sparsely populated area, it was insanely cheap in comparison. In fact, I recalle when I was in middle school my parents buying the house above theirs for $15,000, and the thing is a 3 bedroom house with an acre of land. That's how things were. You also got the impression that Northerners wouldn't touch the South with a 100 foot pole since we were supposevly backwards. But NOW that things have become intolerable in other areas, people realized there was this cheap alternative and a few years ago it was so cheap you could take a chance. I remember even 4 years ago making random searches online and seeing decent homes in TN and NC for $50,000 or less. At that price, who cared? You could just buy one for cash and work a Joe job for the rest of your life. Now those houses are $150,000-$200,000. People that say there was no bubble here are idiots. Of course there was, and likely still is. So now the Southeast has become the dumping ground for the unhappy, who "just want a place to raise a family".

But there's a bigger picture here, and that would be about overpopulation. The thing is this: If EVERYONE in the US wants to have 2-3 kids, a 2-3 room house, two cars, and access to shops, stores, and so on, then we're going to find that problems like those that Raleigh suffers from will become commonplace. Our population has doubled since 1960, and at the current rate it'll double again in 25 years, and so on. Obviously you can't keep right on wrecklessly over-developing one city after another, gorging yourself on "cheap" land, puking out gigantic, slipshod houses and not expect there to someday be problems making that community work. As others have pointed out, this is a pattern. Other cities like those in AZ and FL experienced the same "miraculous" growth in the 80's and 90's. We see what happened there. The same could easily happen here too.

But I digress. The fact remains that the US will continue to grow, new cities will be "discovered", and people will continue to want the same things in regards to ensuring their offspring have a chance for the future. Nothing is new here.

[PDXmom]

Originally Posted by sliverbox

I realize I'm being an ass and own up to it fully. That's just the wawy I feel. I suppose my own reasons for wanting to move are in some ways no different than others here with the one exception that I have an aging family that lives in that region and thus I must eventually take care of them. Thus I have no choice but to make the move someday. I just hope that by the time I do, I can actually afford to do it before all those "carpetbaggers" price me out just like I was in Cali.

I grew up in Eastern NC where families have owned the same land since it was deeded by King George (errr.... stolen from the Native Americans). Many of these families own water front property and can't afford the taxes any more because of everyone wants to retire near the water. So I get your concern about your parents and the loose of your heritage. I too moved from the West Coast (Portland) to NC to be closer to aging parents. If you can't afford this area or don't like it, why not look at Kentucky.... Louisville or Lexington. I understand those are still fairly affordable and I've heard they still have their small town charms.

Venting is necessary sometimes. But it's time to think about moving on with an action plan that works for you. Good luck!

[LisaMc46]

Is that the Triangle will likely look just like NJ and LI in another 20 years.

I grew up in N.J. and moved to Vermont eight years ago to escape the congestion, out-of-control cost of living, high taxes and rude/loud people. Since then many of my N.J. relatives have moved to the Triangle and love living there. My dh and I miss our families and have considered making the move to be closer to them.

What concerns us is the incredible rate of ill-planned development. There seems to be no limit to the number of strip malls and housing developments that developers can build. Not enough schools? No problem. The county will create year-round schools to fit your kids in. Not enough water? No problem. We'll build even more houses as we wait for the drought to end. Not enough highway infrastructure to support the rate of growth? No problem. We'll build now and figure it out later.

My relatives live in lovely subdivisions in Cary and Fuguay Varina. But it seems that every time we visit another swath of forest has been clear cut or another horse farm has been sold and is now being touted as the future site of an upscale subdivision.

It's just a matter of time before taxes escalate to support the infrastructure, schools, municipal services needed for the masses of newcomers. Add to that the traffic, loss of green space, endless strip malls and billboards and the only way you'll know you're not in N.J. anymore will be the barbecue joints and Chick-Fil-A restaurants.

When I try to bring these issues up with my Triangle relatives they become defensive. They say the newcomers have brought good schools and good shopping to the South and that they help to keep the property taxes low.

I would disagree with the OP though when it comes to cookie-cutter houses. It seems to me that most of the subdivisions have a variety of architectural styles and price ranges. And, there is no shortage of well-built homes in our price range ($250,000 to $300,000). Also, the quality of new construction is higher than similarly priced homes in the North East.

[sliverbox]

Thanks PDXmom. Yes, its frusturating for me. My parents and grandmother both have health problems at this point and I feel like I have to make a decision in the next few years. I've been gone from the region now for almost 10 years, and every time I come back to visit, the area looks totally alien to me. So much has been built in a short amount of time. I've also always assumed that I could probably afford to buy there with what I've saved with some leftover for retirement. But the longer I wait, the more expensive it is getting there, and to ake it worse, its becoming that way because the very people who live in the expensive areas I live in are moving there themselves. So it feels aggrevating to see this happening.

Your story about lakefront property is dead-on. My parents inherited a small piece of land on the lake in East TN that my grandfather bought in the 40's for (no kidding) $50. Now the taxes in the thing are ridiculous because there are all kinds of retirees moving in and paying out the wazoo just to live on the water, which is ironic since its actually a man made lake. Some of these homes they are building there are more than $600,000 to 1 million dollars. Unbelievable.

[suncat]

Originally Posted by eloyfan

America belongs to all of us and your antisocial comments are somewhat offensive.

I agree. Every fast-growing city in the US has its scapegoats.

In Portland, they blame everything on Californians. Here, it's the Yankees. Funny that these same Yankees would receive better treatment in Portland, simply because they're not perceived as being the ones causing all the trouble. As a Californian, I haven't been on the receiving end of any negativity in my nine months here, but I put up with it for 20 years in Portland. I am the same person here as there.

[Francois]

Originally Posted by LisaMc46

Is that the Triangle will likely look just like NJ and LI in another 20 years.

[Personally, I don't think it'll take that long]

What concerns us is the incredible rate of ill-planned development. There seems to be no limit to the number of strip malls and housing developments that developers can build. Not enough schools? No problem. The county will create year-round schools to fit your kids in. Not enough water? No problem. We'll build even more houses as we wait for the drought to end. Not enough highway infrastructure to support the rate of growth? No problem. We'll build now and figure it out later.

My relatives live in lovely subdivisions in Cary and Fuquay-Varina. But it seems that every time we visit another swath of forest has been clear cut or another horse farm has been sold and is now being touted as the future site of an upscale subdivision.

It's just a matter of time before taxes escalate to support the infrastructure, schools, municipal services needed for the masses of newcomers. Add to that the traffic, loss of green space, endless strip malls and billboards and the only way you'll know you're not in N.J. anymore will be the barbecue joints and Chick-Fil-A restaurants.

I wish there were a way to "sticky" posts! This says it all!

[sliverbox]

The thing is, you have to look at it from the perspective of those who don't have the financial means to compete with "Newcomers", whoever they are. Let's keep the argument generic for a second. Call them Californians, "Yankees", snowbird retirees, or whatever. Put yourself in the position of the people who've lived in a certain place their whole lives, only to be slowly displaced by others moving in with more cash in their pockets. And there is nothing you can personally do about it. Do you blame them if there is some degree of bitterness? That's just human nature for you. And again, its been happening forever, from displaced native Americans, displaced native Californians, and now displaced Southerners.

[justelise]

@silverbox

Your generalizations about people from the NE are sad, and people with attitudes like yours are why the South has a bad name everywhere I've been (including international destinations). For every one person from NY/NJ/CT/MA/PA here, there is currently one from the west coast (mostly from CA that I have met) who is part of the mass exodus from Silicon Valley that came here to find jobs in IT/Tech/Science/Medicine, or who has lost a job due to outsourcing. If RTP continues to draw tech/science companies and continues to develop (I think it's only 2/3rds full), in 5-10 years the ratio of people from CA/WA to people from NY/NJ/CT/MA will be 2:1. You also failed to mention all of the college students drawn to UNC, Duke, and NCSU from all over the country that decide to stay after graduation. The diversity that all of these groups bring to the area will do more than just drive up the cost of living - don't forget that people from NY/NJ/CT/MA/PA will also help to raise the bar for education on all levels in NC, as these states all consistently rank higher than NC in quality of education, number of individuals with Bachelors degrees, and almost all of them have lower dropout rates.

In this economy I don't know who cares more about the uniqueness of the area they live in (or that they're moving to) over the ability to get a job that pays well enough for them to afford the cost of living in that area. The average middle class person is more concerned with staying afloat right now. Finding cute boutiques and non-chain restaurants or unique architecture is not a major priority, and a lot of people see it as frivolous. I agree that the tract building and the McMansions are eyesores and are ecological nightmares as are the fleets of luxury SUVs, but this area lacks good urban/suburban planning, including population, traffic, and public transportation management. That will, of course, change as the area evolves, and a good public transportation system will take a LOT of these lumbering behemoths off the road.

You're also wrong about overpopulation in terms of family size. Family size has been trending downward for the past 10 years across the nation. I don't know where you've been living, but you obviously haven't been keeping up with the news. Since most families need two incomes to stay afloat, especially after the last disasterous political administration, a lot of women are opting out of having children, or going back to work after one or two children.

It all boils down to striking a balance between cost of living, namely housing, and job/salary. Florida was cheap for a very long time, but the only real industries there are tourism and real estate, and we all saw what happened to the real estate market. Half of the people I know, although originally from the NE, have come here from FL because the job market is abysmal as are the salaries, and Florida has a very poor education system where kids graduate HS reading on the 5th grade level. I saw over 10 Florida plates between North Raleigh and Briar Creek last night alone! People are coming here from all over the nation, and you need to realize that.

The next time you climb up on a soapbox and start pointing fingers, do some research or you'll just continue to give the South and the people you purport to be representing a bad name.

[OrangeSunset]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

The point is, they arent cheaper because they are diamonds in the rough like Raleigh once was, they are cheaper because nobody wants to live there.

I totally agree, specially true about Upstate NY.

My question is: where can you live that has quality schools, good weather (no harsh winters), suitable shopping, affordable housing (~300k range), no bumper-to-bumper traffic, decent jobs in High-Tech, culture/history and it is not over-grown and/or over-developed and/or over-taxed?

Of course no place is perfect and we might have to deal with more traffic or taxes than we would like to but I'm really talking about averages. In fact, we are really having a hard time coming up with an answer. Everything seems to be either super developed & very expensive or affordable but very under-developed or recently turned ghost towns. We are looking for a place more in the middle and really thought the Triangle (mainly Chapel Hill) would fit into that category. Something like San Diego 20 years ago with a Sourthern friendliness & hospitality . Am I wrong?