Tolls on 540 (Washington, Dallas: property taxes, upkeep, vacation)

[NewUser]

Originally Posted by bta

I can only assume that a toll on this portion of 540 would reduce people's willingness to visit stores there.

I highly doubt it. As Desdemona123 points out, tolls are much more common in other areas of the country.

I used to live at the intersection of two toll roads in Dallas. One went north-south and the other went east-west. If I was in a hurry to get somewhere, I took the toll road and paid the toll. If I wasn't in a hurry, I took the side streets and waited at all the traffic lights.

I wouldn't be surprised if we started to see a lot more commercial development (strip malls, grocery, etc) moving in along the I540 corridor, even if it is going to be a toll road. Also, housing developments near (but not within sight or sound of) the toll road will probably increase in value.

[OmegaBaby]

Originally Posted by viridari

It is my understanding that much of this was funded by DOT already and scheduled for construction, and then defunded and assigned to the turnpike authority. Most of 540 would be without tolls but those unlucky enough to live or work near the final sections would bear the brunt of the cost directly. Hardly fair at all considering how the rest of the road was handled with tax dollars.

Meanwhile, I-95 doesn't have any tolls in NC. When you get up into Maryland/Delaware, the tolls start hitting you. Tolling transients rolling down I-95 would be a far better road to toll than 540.

I suspect this is a way for Apex, Cary, Holly Springs, etc. to tell low wage earners that they aren't welcome. Someone who makes $80K a year won't be hurt that badly but someone who makes $20K a year is going to really be hurting from this.

Agreed...it's not fair...but what can you do?

FYI....tolls on I-95 are very near. The Virginia Assembly has already approved a bill to toll I-95 at the border, with proceeds to be split with North Carolina...
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/441259.html

Also, they're talking about about a $2 toll each direction ($1 for I-540, $1 for Triangle Parkway). That won't even buy you a gallon of gas anymore. So considering the gas you're saving by not driving in stop-and-go traffic, you may even break even.

[NewUser]

Originally Posted by viridari

Someone who makes $80K a year won't be hurt that badly but someone who makes $20K a year is going to really be hurting from this.

Look on the bright side. . . . . all those people making $80K a year will be on the toll road, making the side roads free of traffic for the rest of us poor stiffs (in theory, at least).

[bta]

Originally Posted by NewUser

I highly doubt it. As Desdemona123 points out, tolls are much more common in other areas of the country.

To some degree I see your point. However, I used to live in Northern VA. The Dulles Toll Road was great when I wanted to go out to Leesburg from 495 (about 20 miles). I gladly paid the toll for a smooth drive. But if it was a shorter trip, say I just needed to go to Target, I always picked a different Target rather than a Target off the toll road. Even if the toll road Target was closer/faster, I wouldn't take the toll road (and I had an EasyPass so it wasn't that inconvenient)

So for me, when it was a longer drive - no problem paying the toll. But if it was just a short drive and I had a choice - I avoided the toll road like the plague. Maybe it's just me.

[NewUser]

Originally Posted by bta

So for me, when it was a longer drive - no problem paying the toll. But if it was just a short drive and I had a choice - I avoided the toll road like the plague. Maybe it's just me.

I totally agree with you. I had the free exits mapped out in my brain and got pretty good at using a combination of the toll road and side roads in order to get the best bang for my buck. It also depended on time of day and distance, as you said.

[notollson540]

Let me get some deeper thought going here. You folks who want the tolls... at what expense? ... and I'm not just talking about dollars here. First you have the NC DOT which can't seem to properly manage its projects (I-40 from 147 to 15/501 is a perfect example of multiple failures on many levels). With the NC DOT getting out of hand and wasting money, the NC Legislature decides to create the NC Turnpike Authority (NCTA). Do we need yet another government organization? I think not... and NO, North Carolina has NEVER had tolls. Now a portion of the NCTA Board of Directors (BOD) was *appointed* by the NC Legislature. Once of the NCTA's "key restrictions" is "no tolls on existing roads". In July 2006 the NC Legislature AMMENDED Senate Bill 1381. This bill now allows tolling to be placed on the FREE section of 540 that is about to open between I-40 and 55 (in RTP). This section of road is ALREADY PAID FOR. This road was also built with federal funding. See Title 23, United States Code Section 129 for more info on that impact.

What makes that even more interesting is that currently, the NC DOT has black plastic bags over the I-540 signs at all the new interchanges. If that road opens as a part of 540, it will make it more difficult for the NCTA to impose tolls. What might happen?? That portion of road will open, but will NOT be called I-540 and will be controlled by the NCTA. Can you imagine now that there are a couple more sections to be built to finish the 540 loop... except, it won't be the 540 loop. It will be 540 on the northern half of the county... a FREE road, but then it will be the Western Wake Parkway Toll Road over there... the Southern Wake Expressway Toll Road down there, the Eastern Wake Parkway Toll Road over there and 540 as a loop will NEVER exist. This is ludicris, not to mention confusing to joe/jane public or any visitors to our area. And you wouldn't believe the amount of global business travel RTP generates.

The precedent being set by the NC Legislature is very disturbing. The fact that they are partially responsible for appointing a portion of the NCTA BOD makes that even more smelly... you know, dirty politics?!

At this time, sources within the NC DOT are convinced that the NCTA will be taking over the project and tolls are going forward no matter what. This means the NC Legislature, NCTA and NC DOT plan to force tolling on us. I say this needs to be stopped. 540 needs to be a complete loop around Wake County and it needs to be built TOLL FREE. Are you also aware of how much money our Governor and NC Legislature have taken from the Highway Trust Fund? Let's just say sources in the NC DOT have said that over the last 4-5 years or so, they've been able to do about $900 million worth of work per year. This year they only have $400 million available for work. Who is screwed? We are, why? Because politicians think they can nuzzle up, keep quite and spring tolls on the public without us fighting against them. My source at the NC DOT has also confirmed that although the remaining parts of 540 are on their books, there is ZERO funding set for them at this time (including the Western Wake portion). With the current Western Wake project, the NC DOT technically still has control of this, although they are now mostly acting only as an evironmental and design consultant to the NCTA. Why? Because LOTS of our TAX dollars were already paid to the NC DOT for them to begin this kind of work on this project so they have this information already partially prepared.

NO TOLLS ON 540! Atlanta has their 285 loop, Charlotte has their 485 loop and I'm sure there are many other examples like those across this great nation. So Raleigh will have it's 540/westernwakeparkway/southernwakeexpressway/easternwakeparkway loop which is partially tolled and partially not!!?? Come on folks. Common sense.

I could go on, but the above seems to cover what has been addressed in this thread so far. Cary Mayor is from Florida, where according to wikipedia, I count 24 toll roads. It's no wonder he is for the toll road. I'm amazed people from other states that had tolls would rather just pay them and believe your government officials when this is happening the way that it has. I've been through many tolls, most recently the Jersey Turnpike, and didn't care for any of them. Btw, I'm a Raleigh, NC native.

http://www.notollson540.org
http://groups.google.com/group/notollson540

thanks.

[notollson540]

Originally Posted by jbognar

Agreed...it's not fair...but what can you do?

FYI....tolls on I-95 are very near. The Virginia Assembly has already approved a bill to toll I-95 at the border, with proceeds to be split with North Carolina...
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/441259.html

Also, they're talking about about a $2 toll each direction ($1 for I-540, $1 for Triangle Parkway). That won't even buy you a gallon of gas anymore. So considering the gas you're saving by not driving in stop-and-go traffic, you may even break even.

Unfortunately, that is 1 year old news which to my knowledge has not progressed. Within the next couple weeks, I have a meeting planned with David Joyner, Exec. Dir. of the NCTA and this will be one of the topics I discuss with him. If tolls are on 95, 77 ... and maybe even 85 at the borders, both north AND south, lots of NC DOT funds could be re-allocated. Keep in mind, any tolling setup on existing Interstates must go through special approval by the Federal transportation guys. See Title 23 United States Code Section 129 "Tolling Agreements" for that info.

[rfb]

I *hate* the concept of tolls. I live in North Raleigh, so the toll roads in Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, etc. won't affect me directly. But it seems really unfair to have folks who live in those areas have their tax dollars taken and used cover road development and maintenance in other areas (including North Raleigh), yet be expected to pay additional taxes via tolls to cover road development and maintenance in their own areas.

If you believe that targeted taxes like toll roads work, then shouldn't all roads be toll roads, with tolls collected only being used for the maintenance and expansion of those roads? That way, everyone pays for what they use, and nothing for what they don't.

[notollson540]

Originally Posted by bta

To some degree I see your point. However, I used to live in Northern VA. The Dulles Toll Road was great when I wanted to go out to Leesburg from 495 (about 20 miles). I gladly paid the toll for a smooth drive. But if it was a shorter trip, say I just needed to go to Target, I always picked a different Target rather than a Target off the toll road. Even if the toll road Target was closer/faster, I wouldn't take the toll road (and I had an EasyPass so it wasn't that inconvenient)

So for me, when it was a longer drive - no problem paying the toll. But if it was just a short drive and I had a choice - I avoided the toll road like the plague. Maybe it's just me.

"For real highway robbery, look to the 16-mile Dulles Toll Road. Taxpayers were told back in 1984 that the tolls would be eliminated once the bonds sold to finance the public project were paid off. Instead, the toll road was turned into a giant ATM, used to fund everything but transportation."
source: http://www.examiner.com/a-553859~Edi...n_t_exist.html
Also note the private Dulles Greenway mentioned in that article... Scary stuff!!

http://www.notollson540.org
http://groups.google.com/group/notollson540

[viridari]

Originally Posted by rfb

I *hate* the concept of tolls. I live in North Raleigh, so the toll roads in Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, etc. won't affect me directly.

It won't?

What do you think is going to happen to traffic flow on 540 when all of a sudden everyone has to stop and either pick up a turnpike ticket or just pay a flat toll? You think traffic isn't going to slow down pretty well behind that choke point? Imagine the impact of putting a stop sign on 540. Each car comes to a complete stop (and actually linger a bit longer than one would at a stop sign). What is that going to do to traffic?