Tolls on 540 (Durham, Cary, Apex: trip , income, jobs)

[bta]

Originally Posted by viridari

It won't?

What do you think is going to happen to traffic flow on 540 when all of a sudden everyone has to stop and either pick up a turnpike ticket or just pay a flat toll? You think traffic isn't going to slow down pretty well behind that choke point? Imagine the impact of putting a stop sign on 540. Each car comes to a complete stop (and actually linger a bit longer than one would at a stop sign). What is that going to do to traffic?

I'm sure most will use E-ZPass or some equivalent.

http://www.ezpass.com/static/info/howit.shtml

Stopping for a toll booth is pretty old school. You can fly through most E-ZPass lanes.

[bta]

Originally Posted by notollson540

"For real highway robbery, look to the 16-mile Dulles Toll Road. Taxpayers were told back in 1984 that the tolls would be eliminated once the bonds sold to finance the public project were paid off. Instead, the toll road was turned into a giant ATM, used to fund everything but transportation."

To be fair - you should include the rest of the quote:

"VDOT recently agreed to turn over the Dulles Toll Road to the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority this spring. MWAA wants to use the toll road’s $28 million annual revenue to pay for a Metrorail extension to Dulles International Airport, and has already announced plans to raise tolls to pay for it."

So it's not like they're using the money for vacations in Cabo. They will hopefully get metro out to Dulles much sooner now. Something Northern Virginia has needed for a while. I refuse to fly into Dulles because of lack of metro.

[notollson540]

Originally Posted by bta

To be fair - you should include the rest of the quote:

"VDOT recently agreed to turn over the Dulles Toll Road to the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority this spring. MWAA wants to use the toll road’s $28 million annual revenue to pay for a Metrorail extension to Dulles International Airport, and has already announced plans to raise tolls to pay for it."

So it's not like they're using the money for vacations in Cabo. They will hopefully get metro out to Dulles much sooner now. Something Northern Virginia has needed for a while. I refuse to fly into Dulles because of lack of metro.

heh, I linked the article so I didn't have to paste the whole thing here. I'm sure folks can follow a link and read, just as you did. So much for that toll road paying for its own maintenance though eh? If the tolls go to other projects, what upkeeps that road? *sigh* They'll just have to raise the tolls again. For the Dulles Greenway to already be at $2.70 is bad, but to be recommended to go to $4.80 each way by 2012?? That's insanity. I feel for those folks up there. Keep in mind another restriction of the NCTA is that the toll can only be used on the road the toll is on. Well, that's currently at least. Tolls are supposed to be temporary, they never are. I'm for a 100% FREE 540 loop, not some mish moshed jumble of ill-thought plans that I see proposed by the NCTA.



(so this bit goes off topic but so you can get to know me better) I want subways, L's, regional rails, etc. more than you can imagine for this area to help population density, but without population density, you won't get those. It's like the chicken and the egg story. I hate to say it, not only did the TTA screw up and not get their stuff done in time to get federal funding for their proposed regional rail, but the plan sucked. Who the hell links two downtowns?? Mass transit is for getting the people IN and OUT, not between. Also, with the RDU Airport Authority spending gobs of money on parking, they weren't going to allow Phase I anyway, another blow. Why wasn't the RDUAA and TTA working together... this whole fiasco could have been avoided. (done with off topic stuff)

[NYC2RDU]

Wow! So much chatter around this toll road proposal you'd think it doesn't make sense. But it does, very much so.

There are two separate and distinct camps that exist in these forums; those enthralled with all that's good with the Triangle and those alarmed that the rapid growth will result in the collapse of the infrastructure and the associated costs to rebuild it.

A toll road is the perfect solution. It's necessary to manage the increased need for roadway throughput that's resulted from the rapid expansion in the area. It's self-funded where only those that need to use it pay for it's existence. It answers the "who pays for it" question. And for those that wish for things to remain status quo they're free to use the old roadways to get around.

So many of the posts thus far in this thread are raising concerns that outside influences are going to push toll road usage further and further into North Carolina. Why is that a bad thing? It keeps your taxes down and pushes the burden onto those people who choose to use the convenience of these roads.

[notollson540]

Originally Posted by NYC2RDU

So many of the posts thus far in this thread are raising concerns that outside influences are going to push toll road usage further and further into North Carolina. Why is that a bad thing? It keeps your taxes down and pushes the burden onto those people who choose to use the convenience of these roads.

Very much concerned, yes. When the NC Legislature ammends bills in favor of an organization it helped create, all the while not exactly educating the public on its intent, misshandling of the Highway Trust Fund which causes the NC DOT to fail at what it should be capable of are great reasons for concern. Politicians need to be kept in check. The Triangle area also has one of if not the lowest Impact Tax in the nation. This tax is imposed upon developers. Let them pay a little more. Also, property taxes, as much as no one wants to see them higher, are very low in this region. A tiny boost there could also make a significant difference in funds available to NC, if they aren't misshandled. Do you know some idiot gave a group $10 million for a Tea Pot Museum?! Ya, search google, it really exists in NC!?!! Let's fix the current problems, not create new ones.

Anyway, tolling hasn't been an issue b/c no one has made it an issue. Of course the gov't is going to stay low key until they can't. Look at how much press the Year Round school issue has gotten... that's b/c people spoke out. The time to stir the pot is now before we have NO choice about tolls. Either good stew or bad stew will be the end result, but if you don't open the lid and check the ingredients, you never know if you will be happy or screwed.

[viridari]

Originally Posted by bta

Stopping for a toll booth is pretty old school. You can fly through most E-ZPass lanes.

Coming from a state that used EZ-Pass on the Turnpike, I can say that many people will opt-out of EZ-Pass.

Did you know EZ-Pass can be used to ticket you for speeding? EZ-Pass records what time and where you got on the highway, what time and where you got off, and how much time elapsed between the two. It can then report your average speed to the police and you get a ticket in the mail. This isn't used everywhere yet but trials are being done here and there and you better believe this is going to become as real as red light cameras.

No matter what YOUR opinion is of ez-pass, from experience, many people opt out of it. Enough people to clog up the toll booths and back up traffic.

[bta]

Originally Posted by viridari

No matter what YOUR opinion is of ez-pass, from experience, many people opt out of it. Enough people to clog up the toll booths and back up traffic.

Do you have E-ZPass? Cause I've noticed the people that complain the most about the lines typically don't have it. I had it in VA (and used it in neighboring states as well) and I rarely ever had any problems with toll booth backups. The areas that were the worst were on roads that were frequented by visitors. And the roads that were easiest were commuter roads. I think 540 will be more of a commuter road so more of the drivers will opt in to an e-zpass type system.

[bta]

Originally Posted by notollson540

The Triangle area also has one of if not the lowest Impact Tax in the nation. This tax is imposed upon developers. Let them pay a little more. Also, property taxes, as much as no one wants to see them higher, are very low in this region. A tiny boost there could also make a significant difference in funds available to NC, if they aren't misshandled.

notollson540 - I said this in my first post to this thread. I think what your message is missing is a clear statement of the alternative approach to tolls. You talk about misuse of money but you don't give a different solution to the toll problem. This is clearly a deficiency with the site you set up, http://www.notollson540.org. The message of "No Tolls on 540" is clear - but it begs 2 questions: 1) why no tolls? 2) what's the alternative?

And the alternative can't be just use the tax money more wisely or stop gov corruption. Don't get me wrong - those are fine goals. But gov is gov and we've been pushing for better use of tax dollars and an end to corruption for centuries. We need a more immediate solution to get new roads built.

You alluded to a property tax increase or developer tax. How much are you talking about? How much money would that generate in a year? Have other states been successful using a similar approach?

What about the gas tax (which I think is discussed more often in the toll debate)? NC is already one of the highest states - but should we push it higher? If so, how much higher?



I'm not all for toll roads. I'm not going to start a campaign to add toll roads to anything wider than 2 lanes. I just want 540 to be built in my life time. I think you'll have an easier time getting people to rally behind your no toll roads cause if you give them a concrete (no pun intended) alternative solution to support.

[NewUser]

Originally Posted by viridari

Coming from a state that used EZ-Pass on the Turnpike, I can say that many people will opt-out of EZ-Pass.

Coming from a city that used a version of EZ-Pass on it's toll roads, I disagree with you.

Dallas uses a toll-tag on it's toll roads, and it can even be used to pay for parking in the airport. You can fly through those toll gates at a pretty good clip (I regularly did 75mph+) and it'll still record the toll.

A typical one has 3 open lanes devoted to high speed toll-tag use, and 5 closed lanes for the slow pokes who want to wait until they get to the booth to start fishing around in their pockets for quarters.

As an incentive, using a toll-tag cost LESS than just dropping your loose change in the basket. A toll of 75 cents was reduced to 60 cents for toll-tag users. A toll of 40 cents was reduced to 30 cents. So, many many people used the toll tags.

I'm not a fan of toll roads, but I do not agree with the "It'll slow traffic down to a standstill" argument.

[rfb]

Originally Posted by viridari

It won't?

What do you think is going to happen to traffic flow on 540 when all of a sudden everyone has to stop and either pick up a turnpike ticket or just pay a flat toll? You think traffic isn't going to slow down pretty well behind that choke point? Imagine the impact of putting a stop sign on 540. Each car comes to a complete stop (and actually linger a bit longer than one would at a stop sign). What is that going to do to traffic?

In the rare case where I'll take I-540 to RTP, I'll get off before the toll booths. As long as the traffic doesn't back up for 4-5 miles, I should be OK.

I'm also assuming most people who use the toll road during rush hour will get something like EasyPass so they can move through the toll booths without stopping. While this slows traffic some, it doesn't force it to a complete stop.