Tolls on 540 (Raleigh, Cary, Holly Springs: transplants, budget, travel)

[cooperwx]

Originally Posted by notollson540

Look at how much press the Year Round school issue has gotten... that's b/c people spoke out. The time to stir the pot is now before we have NO choice about tolls. Either good stew or bad stew will be the end result, but if you don't open the lid and check the ingredients, you never know if you will be happy or screwed.

FANTASTIC connection between the road issue and the school issue! Wake county failed to prepare for the rush of new citizens (and thus students) even though some saw it coming. Year-round schools were supposed to bail them out, but, oops, it's illegal.

The DOT also failed to prepare for the rush of new citizens (and thus drivers), and now they're looking for a bail-out. Tolls are illegal in NC, but the legislature is working on that.

But in a previous post you mentioned that Char-Meck is getting 485 toll-free. But they started that loop in 1989, and it's still not done yet. It will have taken twenty years to get it done toll-free. unfortunately, the alternative to a toll is a long wait.

[NYC2RDU]

Originally Posted by cooperwx

FANTASTIC connection between the road issue and the school issue! Wake county failed to prepare for the rush of new citizens (and thus students) even though some saw it coming. Year-round schools were supposed to bail them out, but, oops, it's illegal.

The DOT also failed to prepare for the rush of new citizens (and thus drivers), and now they're looking for a bail-out. Tolls are illegal in NC, but the legislature is working on that.

When you say Wake County failed to prepare I wonder what your expectations are of government.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Wake County officials pushed forward plans ten years ago to add schools in areas that didn't quite need them yet "just in case". And those plans also called for the completion of the outer loop "just in case". Now of course this would've needed to be funded by tax dollars which didn't yet exist and so they raised property and consumer taxes to pay for these improvements. How easy would that have been for the constituents to swallow?

So now they're in reactive mode trying to get things going in the right direction and everything, and I mean everything they're doing is being attacked. Which way would you have preferred they go?

Raise taxes to generate funds to build out the infrastructure "just in case" or make decisions in real time?

And in our world today "real time" for government typically means reacting sometime within a twelve month window from when the issue is first surfaced. If the various governing bodies in New York, Massachusetts or California needed to fund projects to build new roads or add new schools it would take years to get anything done.

I think Wake County is doing a credible job of trying to make things right. I don't think they're perfect but I wonder which of us could manage things any better.

Once again, I support the toll road concept as it's a self-funding exercise (notollson540 - no need to counter. I understand your position).

[cooperwx]

To complete the school-toll road connection: News&Observer article

"School and county leaders had some warnings. A district analyst projected in 1992 that Wake would have 118,000 students by 2005. Her projection was met with skepticism, and her job was eliminated a year later. Later projections failed to accurately forecast the recent growth."

The schools are now overcrowded. The Wake Expressway, with no toll, won't be done until years after it is needed, much like the new schools slated for construction.

It seems we can agree on one thing. As long as it can be promised that the tolls will only go to pay off bonds for the road, it's a good thing. But that can't be promised, and history says it won't happen that way.

[Bull City Rising]

A few things to keep in mind. First, the road funding system in NC is heavily biased towards rural areas, especially eastern NC. Great when you get to take US 64 as a freeway most of the distance to the OBX. Not great when you have a daily commute. The funding issue needs to be addressed at the state level.

Second issue: As a Durhamite, living in a county with more controlled/moderated growth, I live in the same NCDOT district as Wake County. I think a toll road is a fair way to get Wake's expressway built soon, without draining all the dollars from Durham's part of the funds. I didn't have a say in Wake County deciding to let rural towns like Apex, Holly Springs, etc. boom with subdivisions. But Durham's got one expressway of its own that has been on the books for *forty years*, and which was finally approved in 1989... but has been awaiting its share of loop funding. We'll be getting that road now in 2012-2015, but it's been needed much longer.

I don't see Wake getting to spring to the front of the line for a free exp'y. I say, make it a toll road, but make darned sure the tolls get pulled once the road is paid for. But, it's not my responsibility -- or Orange's, or Chatham's, or Durham's -- to give Wake County's newest residents a free superhighway supporting new growth.

Incidentally, please don't forget that even with the tolls, almost $20mil. per year will be drained from NCDOT District Five $$$ to pay the 25% of the road that the tolls don't cover.

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

Originally Posted by Bull City Rising

I say, make it a toll road, but make darned sure the tolls get pulled once the road is paid for.

While I agree with that statement 100% I also believe just as strongly that once in place, the tolls will never be removed. I would be interested to learn of examples where tolls were removed once the road was paid for. Maybe other members from states with tolls can speak to this.

That being said, as much as I hate tolls, I am starting to be won over about having a toll for I-540 for the simple reason that it appears this road will not be completed without them.

FWIW, I still have my EZ Pass and use it for driving up I-95 to NJ on occasion. While I love that it makes my trip go smoother, EZ Pass does not prevent tolls from having a negative impact on traffic flow. NJ has had EZ pass for years, but there are still millions of folks who do not have it and use the Turnpike and Parkway everyday. The constant lane changing that goes on at the tolls as people jockey for a place in the cash vs. EZ Pass lanes naturally causes a slowdown in traffic whether you have an EZ Pass or not. The turnpike has recently installed Express EZ Pass lanes that are clearly marked miles in Advance and have no physical barriers that require you to slow down when passing through the toll, but I do not see I-540 being able to set up such a system since the number of lanes is considerably less and I would think you need more space to set up enough toll lanes to make traffic move with the least amount of slow down. Either way, tolls wouln't improve traffic on I-540 that is for sure.

[OmegaBaby]

Originally Posted by cooperwx

To complete the school-toll road connection: News&Observer article

"School and county leaders had some warnings. A district analyst projected in 1992 that Wake would have 118,000 students by 2005. Her projection was met with skepticism, and her job was eliminated a year later. Later projections failed to accurately forecast the recent growth."

The schools are now overcrowded. The Wake Expressway, with no toll, won't be done until years after it is needed, much like the new schools slated for construction.

It seems we can agree on one thing. As long as it can be promised that the tolls will only go to pay off bonds for the road, it's a good thing. But that can't be promised, and history says it won't happen that way.

Ok...I hear this argument alot, but...
1) Everyone elses projections were lower than hers. So who would you believe in that situation? Would you accept the consensus view of moderate growth, or would you stake your future on the view of a single individual predicting large growth?
2) What were they supposed to do in 1992? The tax base was so much smaller back then that they would have had to double taxes to make much of an impact today.

Also, I'm surprised at the argument that I-540 is proof that Wake county is failing to prepare for the rush of new citizens. I think I-540 proves that they ARE preparing for new citizens. It was built in the outer fringes of Wake county, where there was no development whatsoever at the time. It's I-540 itself that is spurring development. They built a highway way out there with the idea that, once built, development would come with it. And it worked! The only problem now is that developers are anticipating the arrival of the highway, and creating large developments around where it will be (e.g. Cary Park, Beaver Creek, Twelve Oaks, etc...). And because of various reasons, the money available to build the highway has evaporated, so future sections of the highway are in jeopardy. But heck...that's not Wake county's fault! They DID plan for the growth and executed that plan. But they simply could not finish that plan for reasons outside of their control (higher costs, money being diverted from highway trust fund, etc...).

Contrast this to a highway like the Blue Route in Philadelphia, which should have been built 50 years ago, but simply wasn't. By the time it was built, it required removing many existing homes, and costing way more because of it.

Geeze...I hate politicians just as much as the next guy, but I do feel sorry for them sometimes. They're damned if they do, and damed if they don't. If they plan for growth, then they have to raise taxes to pay for it, and then get accused of wasteful spending. If they don't raise taxes, then they don't have the money to pay for improvements to infrastructure, and then they get accused of not planning for growth.

If you want better highways, you have to deal with tolls or higher taxes.
If you think the government can do better with the money it already has, don't just make generic arguments that the government is wasteful....make a list of what you think is wasteful spending and spread the word.

[MrsSteel]

How would the tolling system work? How many toll booths would they put along the loop? Where I am from, there is a tolled turnpike that goes through part of the city and you are actually charged by how long you are on the road (there are PikePass sensors at each exit & entrance ramp and automated toll booths, as well).

Also, how much of a toll are they proposing? Someone in an earlier post mentioned $1 or even $2 each way. That sounds ridiculously high to me! If they charge too much, people won't use the road and it will take forever to pay for it. If they charge a more reasonable rate (50 cents perhaps?) the increased volume will pay for the road more quickly.

[Rich6896]

Just be prepared. If these tolls go up they will never come down. When the road is finally finished there will be a push to keep the hack jobs the tolls created. At this time there will be some sort of improvement to the road that will be needed, a new bond will be taken out, and this cycle will continue forever. This deal you make with the toll devil may be worth it to those of you who feel you need the road.

[OmegaBaby]

Originally Posted by MrsSteel

Also, how much of a toll are they proposing? Someone in an earlier post mentioned $1 or even $2 each way. That sounds ridiculously high to me! If they charge too much, people won't use the road and it will take forever to pay for it. If they charge a more reasonable rate (50 cents perhaps?) the increased volume will pay for the road more quickly.

Really? $1 or $2 seems high? The highway is going to be about 20 miles, and with gas approaching $4 and typical gas mileage around 20MPG, you would end up spending $4 just in gasoline over this distance. And that's the price of gas in 2007.....who knows what the price of gas in 2011 is going to be!

[OmegaBaby]

Originally Posted by Rich6896

Just be prepared. If these tolls go up they will never come down. When the road is finally finished there will be a push to keep the hack jobs the tolls created. At this time there will be some sort of improvement to the road that will be needed, a new bond will be taken out, and this cycle will continue forever. This deal you make with the toll devil may be worth it to those of you who feel you need the road.

Agreed...the tolls will never come down.

But if the money has to come from somewhere (even for those improvements in 30 years). So you either deal with tolls, or higher property/income/gas taxes. There is no free lunch.

Personally, I'd prefer that all roads be paid for with only gas taxes (without the possibility of those funds being diverted). Simple and fair. But with loonies like Bill Graham and his 'stop the gas tax hike' crusade, it will never happen.