Will DT Raleigh grow to become like Charlotte? (Winston-Salem, Fayetteville: townhouse, YMCA)

[rfb]

Originally Posted by Tarheelhombre

Raleigh really needs to tighten up, and by that I mean plan for a denser, more vibrant city core. Economist and urban planners agree that sprawling suburban life is bad for the environment, quality of life, and the economy and is unsustainable. Therefore, wise cities are attempting to spark vitality in their city centers, by zoning for dense, mixed used development in the city center.

If only Raleigh were the center of the Triangle, this might work. But it isn't. And there really isn't one, but multiple. You have Raleigh and Durham, both cities of their own right that are close together. In between is RTP, which is closer to the "center" of the Triangle than anything else. However, zoning laws don't allow for dense, mixed-use development within RTP.

Moreover, the young, well-educated, professional Creative Class that cities covet generally love cities with walkable, 24/7 vibrant city centers, so it is also a matter of luring attractive demographics to the region.

Gotta disagree with this one. The Triangle area has *a lot* of well educated, creative individuals. And many, if not most, are quite happy to live in the suburbs and work in RTP. I, for one, love all the outdoor activities available in or near Raleigh - from hiking, to biking, to the beach, mountains, snow skiing, there is just so much to love about this area.

[Sayantsi]

Charlotte has a great down town now - there used to be a lot of run down areas, but over the past ten years there's been a great renewal of the area. It also helps that the arena is down town, the new convention center is down town, the theater is down town, the main museum, library, etc...

There's lots to do all day, and just outside of the high-rise area the wards have all been redone and now have nice, lighted streets and town homes.People live there now because its a nice place to be, but it wasn't always like that.

Raleigh of course is different but it is growing like Charlotte and many other mid size cities with active urban renewal projects. We're already seeing better daytime and night time activities, more restaurants, more living, and new civic buildings like the convention center. The more attractions that are built down town, the better DT Raleigh will be, and if i had to state it, I'd say Raleigh is about 10-15 years behind Charlotte in urban renewal but its on the same path.

The thing about Charlotte is it will take you while to drive from the outskirts to the city center now, which facilitates urban living. Raleigh isn't big enough yet that there is a large population of people that would rather live down town rather than way out in the suburbs. With the growth in FV, Apex, etc, you can see the city expanding, and eventually the metro area will be large enough to encourage fill in and denser urban living.

[urbancharlotte]

Originally Posted by CHTransplant

The challenge for the Triangle is that it has multiple economic cores - downtown Raleigh, north raleigh, RTP, Durham, Chapel Hill .... it is a dispersed economy here, and there's no planning on earth that is going to suddenly (or even over decades) change it into a single core region that is typical of some larger cities. The Triangle is what it is.

Much of what you said here is VERY true. However, MANY cities (including Atlanta and Charlotte) are more "poly-centric" than some folks may think. In Atlanta, there is Buckhead, Midtown, Perimeter, Sandy Springs, Norcross, etc etc. In Charlotte, there is Uptown, South Park, University City, Ballantyne, Arrowood/White Hall, etc etc etc.

The difference with Atlanta/Charlotte vs Raleigh is that the aforementioned cities have major freeways in their downtowns (and the latter does not). Before the invention of cars, downtowns were strong without freeways (think Charleston South Carolina). Today, post automobile cities NEED to have freeways in order to compete with the burbs. The fact that Raleigh has I-440 (and is building I-540) pretty much shows where Raleigh's future development will go. A north/south freeway that runs from I-40 (south of downtown) to I-440 (north of downtown) would help downtown Raleigh attract new jobs and businesses. I am sure of it.

As it stands right now, downtown Raleigh competes with the downtowns of MUCH smaller cities (ie Columbia SC and Winston-Salem NC). Both of these cities have a direct freeway link into (and out of) their respective downtowns. Columbia's is not that great, but Winston-Salem's business I-40 is!!!

[Sayantsi]

Originally Posted by CHTransplant

I'm not sure I can agree with that, given (1) the significant differences in the cities' two economies - especially Charlotte's heavy reliance on a downtown-centric banking industry, which Raleigh lacks and is unlikely to develop, and (2) the wider dispersion of businesses in the greater Raleigh area, rather than being concentrated around a single urban core.

Raleigh is Raleigh; Charlotte is Charlotte. I don't see one becoming like the other.

I just want to point out, the biggest new building in Raleigh is from a bank.

You are right of course that Charlotte is a financial city - it was the second largest financial city behind New York before Wachovia went under. We do have a strong banking foundation across all NC however - Charlotte, Raleigh, Winston Salem all have major banks based in them. Raleigh also has the Capitol and government business.

Charlotte is a lot like Raleigh imo. There is no one focal point - you have Uptown, Southpark, The Arboretum, Ballyntine, Pineville, Lake Norman/Davidson, University, etc. that are huge centers of business, commerce, and living. We have the same in Downtown, RTP, North Hills, Durham, Cary, etc. that will grow like Charlotte historically did imo.

[CHTransplant]

I guess my impression of these larger cities - which could be entirely wrong - is that while they have more than one business center - the region is centered around a downtown core and the area radiates out from that. The Triangle seems more like a piece of string - there is no center.

[ApexIntruder]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

Much of what you said here is VERY true. However, MANY cities (including Atlanta and Charlotte) are more "poly-centric" than some folks may think. In Atlanta, there is Buckhead, Midtown, Perimeter, Sandy Springs, Norcross, etc etc. In Charlotte, there is Uptown, South Park, University City, Ballantyne, Arrowood/White Hall, etc etc etc.

The difference with Atlanta/Charlotte vs Raleigh is that the aforementioned cities have major freeways in their downtowns (and the latter does not). Before the invention of cars, downtowns were strong without freeways (think Charleston South Carolina). Today, post automobile cities NEED to have freeways in order to compete with the burbs. The fact that Raleigh has I-440 (and is building I-540) pretty much shows where Raleigh's future development will go. A north/south freeway that runs from I-40 (south of downtown) to I-440 (north of downtown) would help downtown Raleigh attract new jobs and businesses. I am sure of it.

As it stands right now, downtown Raleigh competes with the downtowns of MUCH smaller cities (ie Columbia SC and Winston-Salem NC). Both of these cities have a direct freeway link into (and out of) their respective downtowns. Columbia's is not that great, but Winston-Salem's business I-40 is!!!

Great input. Thanks for the insight.

[triangletallman]

This is timely since I was just in Charleston, SC this past weekend. While out on the streets both Friday and Saturday nights, I was struck by how many people were "hanging-out" there 12midnight and later.

I thought how much different the mood and appearance was/is compared to Raleigh. Granted we have Glenwood South and I have enjoyed the area in the past, but not nearly as busy as the downtown streets of Charleston. Having a downtown college (CofC) there certainly helps. However, I did see many 40 & 50 somethings out on the streets.

My point is I'm not really compelled to visit our downtown area unless there is a large scheduled function. I don't know if the downtown area can draw people to restaurants, bars and shops in the future. I would be delighted if that did happen.

Frankly, I don't particularly care if we are "like" Charlotte or not. I just want to know if I want to go downtown, I'm going to make it home as well.

[NCgirl]

Originally Posted by CHTransplant

I guess my impression of these larger cities - which could be entirely wrong - is that while they have more than one business center - the region is centered around a downtown core and the area radiates out from that.

Charlotte isn't really like that. There are individual "neighborhoods" that are self sustaining with almost a small town within in a larger city feeling. A lot of people live, work and play in one area and never set foot in Uptown. For example I live in a 47 square mile area in SW Charlotte which known as Steele Creek. When local people ask where I live I say Steele Creek and they know exactly what I'm talking about.

Charlotte's 2008 population was 687,456. Only about 70,000 people work Uptown and about 13,000 people live Uptown. Many of the Uptown workers live outside of Charlotte and Mecklenburg county.

.

Originally Posted by Sayantsi

Charlotte is a lot like Raleigh imo. There is no one focal point - you have Uptown, Southpark, The Arboretum, Ballyntine, Pineville, Lake Norman/Davidson, University, etc. that are huge centers of business, commerce, and living. We have the same in Downtown, RTP, North Hills, Durham, Cary, etc. that will grow like Charlotte historically did imo.

[metro.m]

Originally Posted by NCgirl

Charlotte isn't really like that. There are individual "neighborhoods" that are self sustaining with almost a small town within in a larger city feeling. A lot of people live, work and play in one area and never set foot in Uptown. For example I live in a 47 square mile area in SW Charlotte which known as Steele Creek. When local people ask where I live I say Steele Creek and they know exactly what I'm talking about.

Charlotte's 2008 population was 687,456. Only about 70,000 people work Uptown and about 13,000 people live Uptown. Many of the Uptown workers live outside of Charlotte and Mecklenburg county.

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First things first. Uptown Charlotte is ahead of Downtown Raleigh so far as business, skyline, infrastructure, and residential space is concerned. However, believe it or not DT Raleigh has more clubs, bars, and restaurants than Uptown. DT Raleigh also has more Retail square footage, historic structures, museums, and about equal the nightlife lately.

Raleigh has about 10-15 more years to catch up with Charlotte, but as of right now Charlotte is quickly building a foundation to have one of the nicest Dowtowns in the South.

I think what the original poster is more impressed by Charlotte's awesome skyline. It's kind of like comparing to DT Atlanta to DT DC. Atlanta will always get all of the shine because people in general base downtowns purely on skyline, even though DC has more going on at ground level. I'm not saying Raleigh has more going on at ground level, but we're about 2/3 as busy as DT Charlotte on a typical business day.

I think comparing Raleigh to Dowtown Winston-Salem is an insult. We may not be that far ahead so far as skyline is concerned, but DT Raleigh is roughly twice the size of DT WS. Winston-Salem also doesn't much nightlife, retail, or entertainment to speak of. Having a freeway disect through DT Raleigh could go both ways. It maybe successful for other cities, but maybe not ours. Durham has a DT freeway, but their DT is constantly struggling and hasn't experienced much growth. I think there are many more factors that help with the development of DT's.

[samdan]

Originally Posted by ApexIntruder

We are not folks that would ever care to live in the city. We much prefer the way the Triangle is laid out with great suburban and country areas. If, however, we had a DT area like Charlotte with everything they have to offer, we would venture into the city more often than we do. Maybe once a month or so, rather than 3 or 4 times a year. We would only visit for part of the day and then retreat back to where we like to live. Many other people would also venture into the city more often, if there were more offerings like Charlotte has. It would be great for the local economy.

I think this area is better overall by far, but can still see some room for improvement. Mayor Meeker obviously feels the same way. As Raleigh is the capitol of NC, I would prefer to see her as the shining city and not second to Charlotte. I would also think that as much as some people here mention how much they like the city life, they would also prefer to have the choices and beauty that Charlotte has. We are headed in that direction, but do we plan on going all the way?

Totally agree!Put some polish on it,clean it up.