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Old 06-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Location: North Carolina
1,764 posts, read 2,044,239 times
Reputation: 1861


Originally Posted by Bobbi67 View Post
What kind of doctor doesn't return phone calls??? That's unethical behavior if I've ever seen it.
Yes, that happens all the time and we are blamed by other people looking down on us for not wanting to be abused by the system.

How is this for unethical behavior? My grandmother went to the doctor because she was spotting (well after menopause). They did a pelvic exam and told her "no news is good news." Basically, they would only call her if there was a problem. Four months later she went back because she was feeling worse and the doctor told her "You have ovarian cancer. We forgot to call you." She died less than a year later.

I had a gynecologist violate my personal boundaries to the point that if anyone else had done what happened to me, it would be a crime! Yet, it's okay and I'm considered to "overreacting" because I refused to deliver my baby through that office.

I could go on and on, but that's not the purpose of this thread. I just get tired of those in the system calling others "quacks." There have free license to experiment and kill people and everyone seems okay with it because it's all in the "name of science."

Jumping off soapbox.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Location: Raleigh
167 posts, read 686,454 times
Reputation: 192
Originally Posted by Bobbi67 View Post
There is a HUGE difference between what is normal in a lab range and what is optimal for that patients health. Also, lab values were changed in 2002, but labs are currently using very old ranges that are out of date. This is taken from the American Endocrinology Association's website regarding lab values for TSH. Here is the website American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (http://www.aace.com/public/awareness/tam/2004/tsh.php - broken link)

In November 2002, AACE published revised guidelines that provided a new range for normal thyroid function. Until this time, doctors had relied on a normal TSH level ranging from 0.5 to 5.0 to diagnose and treat patients with a thyroid disorder who tested outside the boundaries of that range. AACE encouraged doctors to consider treatment for patients who test outside the boundaries of a narrower margin based on a target TSH level of 0.3 to 3.04. AACE believes the new range will result in improved accuracy of diagnosis for millions of Americans who suffer from a mild thyroid disorder, but have gone untreated.

Here is another website from the Society of Endocrinology regarding new researching finding that a suppressed TSH isn't as bad as once thought.

New research shows it may be safe for patients taking thyroxine to have lower TSH levels than currently recommended.

Mainstream docs are so busy with patients that they are not keeping up with the latest information.

It is also a fact that eating gluten creates more antibodies, and if you have an autoimmune disease, such as Hashimoto's, you already have antibodies that are attacking you thyroid. So by eating gluten, which is creating more antibodies, your thyroid becomes under attack even further.

Traditional doctors treat by labs and symptoms only until the labs show you should be feeling fine. If you're still not feeling well, they give up on you. I have had 3 traditional doctors tell me to see a holistic doctor because they are better educated to treat me. So if holistic treatments are so bogus, why are traditional doctors telling me they aren't educated enough to treat me and that I should see a holistic doctor instead?

I have also never had a traditional doctor treat me for my Hashimoto's or try to find what's actually causing my symptoms and treat that. All they do is throw drugs at you and take labs that aren't even accurate.
Bobbi67 et al.,

I'll make these comments and then make no further comments.

1. I agree that there is a difference between what is normal in a lab and what is optimal for a patient's health. In fact, I was making this same point. My exact point is that because of the way "normal" is defined, 5% of "normal" or "healthy" patients will NOT have a normal test. An abnormal test does not by itself necessarily warrant treatment.

2. I don't disagree with anything you have stated about the AACE, but rather, offered very similar data in my post. Read the language, closely however, and see that the "AACE believes the new range will result in improved accuracy of diagnosis for millions of Americans who suffer from a mild thyroid disorder, but have gone untreated."

There are two issues here. First, the AACE is in part, an advocacy organization for the business of endocrinology, and by defining the normal range in more narrow terms, they will have created tens of thousands of new patients (AKA "customers") who will now be defined as "abnormal" and who may therefore warrant treatment. However, you rightly argue that labs must be interpreted with caution when determining what is optimal for a patient's health. You must realize, therefore, that in now defining tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of new patients as "abnormal," that many such patients, who otherwise feel perfectly healthy, will start receiving possibly unnecessary treatment. Patients who have elevated TSH values, but who otherwise feel perfectly well, are said to have "subclinical hypothyroidism." The decision to treat should be made on an individualized basis, much as you suggest.

Secondly, the use of the word "believes" indicates that it is their opinion, and while their opinion is certainly based on scientific evidence, my point was only that the opinion is controversial, in part because of the reasons I just listed above, and which I mentioned in my original post. Changing a range of normal for a very common disorder has enormous consequences to the public and is not something that should be done lightly or quickly. Furthermore, there is a dearth of outcomes-based research to indicate what might improve or worsen should this group begin therapy.

3. You stated: "It is also a fact that eating gluten creates more antibodies, and if you have an autoimmune disease, such as Hashimoto's, you already have antibodies that are attacking you thyroid. So by eating gluten, which is creating more antibodies, your thyroid becomes under attack even further."

This is not true.

Eating gluten does not create "antibodies" in normal individuals.

Celiac disease is considered an immune disorder that is triggered by an environmental agent (the gliadin component of gluten) in genetically predisposed individuals. For those patients with celiac disease, eating gluten triggers the production of auto-immune antibodies against a specific component of smooth muscle (not the thyroid) in the intestine, which in turn leads to their symptoms.

There is an increased incidence of both autoimmune hyperthyroidism (Grave's disease) and autoimmune hypothyroidism (Hashimoto's) among patients with Celiac Disease.

There is a slightly increased incidence of Celiac Disease among patients with Hasimoto's but the increase has only been scientifically shown in those patients older than 65 and is limited to 3.6% of the population in that group (i.e. only 3.6% of patients with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis over age 65 have concomitant Celiac Disease) [Experimental Gerontology. 38(5):589-95, 2003 May.]. Other studies have shown the rate to be as high as 4.3% [Italian Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology. 31(4):283-7, 1999 May.]. In those patients, a gluten-free diet makes sense.

There is no scientific evidence, however, to indicate that a gluten-free diet improves Hashimoto's disease for patients without concomitant Celiac disease.

That doesn't mean that trying it is a stupid idea since it's harmless, though costly. However, there's no evidence that it works.

4. I agree with those who have said (in so many words) that Big Pharma is primarily interested in the bottom line (money money money).

5. I stand by my comments, however, that Duke and other similar institutions are entering alternative medicine for the same reason. It has nothing to do with being "progressive" but rather attaching a strong brand (Duke) to an increasingly popular trend to attract patients and dollars.

6. I agree with those who have implied that medicine, as it is currently practiced in this country, is a business. Thus, the goals and conflicts of a "traditional" physician are no different than those of an "alternative" physician. Patients seem to ignore, however, that money could play any role in the goals of an alternative medicine practitioner.

7. I appreciate that your experience with "traditional medicine" has been frustrating. As I stated initially, alternative medicine practitioners have capitalized on one very important failure of "mainstream" medicine: focusing time spent with a patient on the patient. All practitioners should do this, but since insurance reimbursement steadily declines daily (private or government), the allotted time to see patients becomes more and more brief, and the focus on the patient, which should be paramount, is sacrificed. Patients seek care from providers who respect them as individuals and who offer them time and attention.

Perhaps if one of those doctors had done that, your outcome would have been different. However, their failure to do so does not render all that traditional medicine does useless or misplaced. Remember also, that your impression of the system as one that is only interested in "throwing drugs" at the problem, is largely created by the patients themselves (see: gastric bypass surgery, fat loss pills, et cetera). Patients want a "quick" fix, and often don't have the will to make the changes that will really improve their health.

Best of luck to you and your health.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:29 PM
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,506 posts, read 4,188,602 times
Reputation: 2532
VSB...well said.
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:36 PM
Location: Florence MA
82 posts, read 116,815 times
Reputation: 151
Hey Bobbi - I sent you a PM a while back about a dr. who takes insurance - I'm wondering if you got it?
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:26 PM
81 posts, read 195,489 times
Reputation: 20
"Eating gluten does not create "antibodies" in normal individuals."

Let me restate.....in patients who have Hashimoto's, eating gluten DOES create more antibodies and thus creates more harm to the thyroid. I can't speak for other patients, but I know personally that when I eat gluten I feel even worse than I normally do (basically literally cannot function at all.

The point I was making with the AACE statement about TSH is that this was changed back in 2002, yet labs today still use outdated lab ranges, thus leading doctors to not even treat some patients until they are so sick they cannot function.

Bottom line is if you are having typical hypothyroid symptoms that are affecting the way you are able to function, then you need treatment regardless of what the labs say. That's how they used to treat people prior to thyroid labs being invented and I'm sure they received much better treatment back then because doctors actually cared about how the patient felt. I've had several doctors not even return my phone calls because my symptoms didn't match their labs and they had no clue what to do.
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:32 AM
1 posts, read 939 times
Reputation: 10
Default Looking for Pittsburgh and Raleigh

Originally Posted by panht1 View Post
Bobbi - I haven't moved to Raleigh yet, but will be in July. I also need to find an alternative doctor to replace the fantastic one I have here in Pittsburgh. I'm checking out Dr. Goode's website now. Are you a patient? Does she treat with Armour/T3?

Hi, I just read this post. I live in Pittsburgh and I am very curious who your Dr. is in Pittsburgh for myself but my daughter is moving to Raleigh and I'm searching for her to see someone there.
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