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Old 02-27-2008, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 14,740,228 times
Reputation: 3876

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxMark View Post
I notice that most "full service" listing agents provide less than full service...don't attend showings, no open houses, don't attend any inspections, don't even negotiate on behalf of their clients...(unless just being the conduit to pass numbers back and forth is 'negotiating'), yet they expect their full commission. Maybe my buyers should expect a credit from the listing agent in those cases?
That's a pretty broad and inaccurate general accusation about realtors, and it is just not correct.

It is a line that service for fee agents use as a competing strategy. And I think you will find that all of the other full service realtors on this forum will take exception to your false accusation also.

Listings agents typically do not attend showings, and for a good reason. The buyer agents don't want them there. The buyer agents know their clients and their needs, and they want to be alone with their clients. They do not want the listing agent interfering with their client.

The exception is in multi-million dollar homes where the homeowner doesn't want strangers in the home alone. Then the listing agent will let the buyer agent in and then disappear into the woodwork allowing the buyer agent to have time with their client, and then be available if they have questions about the features of the home that may not be evident in the plano or by physical viewing.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:26 PM
 
26 posts, read 61,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
That's a pretty broad and inaccurate general accusation about realtors, and it is just not correct.

It is a line that service for fee agents use as a competing strategy. And I think you will find that all of the other full service realtors on this forum will take exception to your false accusation also.
First of all, I'm not a fee for service agent; only thinking about it since, with information becoming more and more available, it's quite obvious that consumers feel more and more comfortable with much of the process and, therefore, want more control over their situations and, as a result, be rewarded for it. We are heading that in that direction, even if kicking and screaming.

With that being said, with regard to the "broad and inaccurate general accusation", I said "most", not all. So, let's look at the numbers:

This past weekend, in my general area, there were exactly 93 open houses listed on the MLS (for condos and single families). In that area, there are a total of 4109 condos/sf's listed for sale. Although it's unfathomable to me why someone would not list an Open in the MLS, let's assume that half were not listed, to give the benefit of the doubt; so we'll say maybe there were 186 open houses, which means that 95.47% of all listings did not have an open house. If once per month (4.3 weeks) is deemed reasonable for holding opens, that still means that 80.5% of homes are still not having open houses. In my book, that's "most"; not false.

As for property inspections, I not only attend, but follow the inspector around, so I can hear every comment, in order to be the best advocate for my client when it comes to inspection issues (as both a listing and selling agent). I can't speak for your area, but at least in mine, at least 80% are not generally attended by the listing agent. Again, to me, that's "most"; not false (and, I believe, a complete disservice to the client). In fact, MOST of the time, I don't get the pleasure of meeting the listing agent until closing (and not always then, either) unless I happen to run into them when I'm dropping off the signed contract and earnest money at their office. So, who's limited service?

BTW, there are many professional agents, both full and fee-for-service, including many on this site (maybe even yourself ). Never said there weren't. However, if any fit the description above, I don't care if they're offended. I'm offended that they call themselves full service, when the only thing full is the commission they receive.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 14,740,228 times
Reputation: 3876
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxMark View Post
First of all, I'm not a fee for service agent; only thinking about it since, with information becoming more and more available, it's quite obvious that consumers feel more and more comfortable with much of the process and, therefore, want more control over their situations and, as a result, be rewarded for it. We are heading that in that direction, even if kicking and screaming.

With that being said, with regard to the "broad and inaccurate general accusation", I said "most", not all. So, let's look at the numbers:

This past weekend, in my general area, there were exactly 93 open houses listed on the MLS (for condos and single families). In that area, there are a total of 4109 condos/sf's listed for sale. Although it's unfathomable to me why someone would not list an Open in the MLS, let's assume that half were not listed, to give the benefit of the doubt; so we'll say maybe there were 186 open houses, which means that 95.47% of all listings did not have an open house. If once per month (4.3 weeks) is deemed reasonable for holding opens, that still means that 80.5% of homes are still not having open houses. In my book, that's "most"; not false.

As for property inspections, I not only attend, but follow the inspector around, so I can hear every comment, in order to be the best advocate for my client when it comes to inspection issues (as both a listing and selling agent). I can't speak for your area, but at least in mine, at least 80% are not generally attended by the listing agent. Again, to me, that's "most"; not false (and, I believe, a complete disservice to the client). In fact, MOST of the time, I don't get the pleasure of meeting the listing agent until closing (and not always then, either) unless I happen to run into them when I'm dropping off the signed contract and earnest money at their office. So, who's limited service?

BTW, there are many professional agents, both full and fee-for-service, including many on this site (maybe even yourself ). Never said there weren't. However, if any fit the description above, I don't care if they're offended. I'm offended that they call themselves full service, when the only thing full is the commission they receive.
If you had 15 listings, how many open houses would you do each weekend? No more than 2, right? And probably no more than two each week, otherwise you would not be able to do the other work required of your business.
  • How many of those houses did the owners not want an open house?
  • For what reason?
  • And how many homeowners want to have two open houses every weekend?
  • Also, in this market there is a limit to how much time an agent can spend in open houses for each client.
  • And perhaps some houses were being held open but were advertised in different ways.
  • I never check the mls to see what homes are showing as open house.
  • The prospects who go to the open houses that I'm in almost all tell me that they either live in the neighborhood or saw the signs when they were driving around.
  • The prospects don't go to the mls to see what homes are being held open.
  • They go to the area they want to see homes and look for the road signs.
So I think your method of gathering statistics to run down your fellow realtors for not holding open houses is seriously flawed.

The home inspector is hired by the buyer. The buyer is their client. The seller is not their client, and the inspector has no obligation to tell the listing agent anything, unless the buyer provides permission.

There are inspectors who I know that will tell a listing agent who is intent on following them around like you are saying you will do, to back off and get out of their way.

One that I know will also, politely but firmly, tell the buyers agent to get out of his way, or inform him that if he follows him around and slows him up that he will bill the client for the extra time. The buyers agent should wait patiently until the inspector does his work, and then the inspector will give the buyer and the buyers agent a summary, and go physically point out any problem areas.

When the inspector discusses the summary with the buyer right after the inspection, the listing agent should excuse himself and disappear into the woodwork, because what the inspector tells his/her client is confidential, and requires the buyers permission to allow the seller or the listing agent to hear.

As listing agent I'm there to let the inspector in, and stay for the entire time, but stay out of the inspectors way. When it's time to give the summary, I will excuse myself unless the buyer invites me to stay for the summary.

As a buyers agent, I'm there during the entire inspection, and again I stay out of the way until the inspector is finished. I respect his time, and do not attempt to look over his shoulder and micro-manage.

The seller will get a copy later, but after the buyer gives permission.

Quote:
I can't speak for your area, but at least in mine, at least 80% are not generally attended by the listing agent.
You mean 80% of the inspections that you are on, correct? Because there are no statistics kept on that. If there are perhaps you can point me to them.

Quote:
In fact, MOST of the time, I don't get the pleasure of meeting the listing agent until closing (and not always then, either) unless I happen to run into them when I'm dropping off the signed contract and earnest money at their office. So, who's limited service?
I guess that means you don't present the offer in person to the listing agent and the seller at the sellers home, and explain the offer to the seller so they have a good understanding of the buyer who is making the offer, and the buyers justification for the offered price and terms. That is one of the many things that a lot of good full service agents do.

In AZ the buyers agent hangs onto the earnest money check until there is a signed contract. When there is a signed contract the buyers agent is required to immediately deposit the earnest money with the title company. The title company sends receipts for the check to each party. It is not taken to the listing agents office. It may be different in your state.

However, do you really consider that dropping off a contract at a listing agents office is full service for your client?

I would really like to know what you consider to be full service. And not in a manner that is degrading to your fellow realtors. Just what you consider to be full service as a listing agent and as a buyers agent.

I'm sort of at a loss as to why a realtor would come on this forum and blast his/her fellow realtors in the way you have.

Also, why the same realtor would not identify him/herself as a realtor as the forum allows, and provide their web site in the profile. After all that is free advertising. If you weren't aware of that, you should check it out.

By providing your web site and contact information in your profile you may get leads from people in your area who are looking for the services you provide.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:31 AM
 
26 posts, read 61,685 times
Reputation: 25
"If you had 15 listings, how many open houses would you do each weekend? No more than 2, right?"
The average number of listings per agent, in the above area, is 1.65, not 15.

"There are inspectors who I know that will tell a listing agent who is intent on following them around like you are saying you will do, to back off and get out of their way....As a buyers agent, I'm there during the entire inspection, and again I stay out of the way until the inspector is finished. I respect his time, and do not attempt to look over his shoulder and micro-manage."
In over 100 inspections as a buyer's agent (and more than that amount as a listing agent), I've never had an inspector tell me to back off for simply tagging along with the buyer, and none has ever even remotely expressed that simply paying attention was equivalent to looking over his shoulder and "micro-managing". Maybe inspectors here are different? I believe it's an agent's responsibility to learn all the facts, first-hand, if possible, to best advocate for my clients, as well as learn things (in this case, potential home issues) that can be used to inform future clients. If that's a bad thing, then I guess it's just a difference in philosophy.

I'm not here to "bash" my fellow Realtors (the 2nd diatribe was merely expanding on the inoccuous point which you chose to focus on, and defend, with facts, that they were neither "blanket", nor "completely false", but did have some merit).

I was only trying to make a point, which was completely ignored, with regard to your assertion that if the selling agent chooses to rebate any part of his commission, it should instead go to the seller, and not his own client. Maybe I didn't express my point clearly; so, you tell me, in those cases, what are the listing agents doing (and, by contrast, what are the rebating agents not doing) that entitles the listing broker to decide that the co-op commission should be reduced and credited back to the seller?
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 14,740,228 times
Reputation: 3876
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxMark View Post

I'm not here to "bash" my fellow Realtors
But that is exactly what you were doing with this blanket statement:

Quote:
I notice that most "full service" listing agents provide less than full service...don't attend showings, no open houses, don't attend any inspections, don't even negotiate on behalf of their clients...(unless just being the conduit to pass numbers back and forth is 'negotiating'), yet they expect their full commission.
Plus a couple of other statements you made.

Have fun
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:30 AM
 
27,206 posts, read 46,599,387 times
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I'm not a realtor but just a seller and some times a buyer. When i sold my proeprties my realtor was never there when an appraiser came out. I was there and gave them info they asked. Yes they ask sometimes questions and to answer them can help get a reasonable appraisel. I had appraisers coming out and even trash talking about my realtor and why some realtors were never present and others always. (full service..) Also when the home inspection was done, only in 1 out of 5 properties I sold, the buyers realtor was present. The buyers were always present, so was I. The buyers realtor who was there was really on top of things and had the best interest for her clients. She really showed that she there for the buyers not for me but that is normal, and she was polite and after all I'm the one who paid her commision! So if I experienced this in all the 5 properties I sold, isn't that saying something....
By the way mu neighbor homeis for sale for over 2 years and when their realtor held his first open house he came to my house (similar home) and asked if buyers would come to the open house if he could show my house aswell? Strange question, because my house is not for sale..... I was so shocked that I forgot to ask why he would show our home. Our yard is better maintained, our colors are better and the home next to me is very hard to sell since everyhting is in a very light color. Carpet, kitchen, tile, walls, like a hospital, even the sale people from the builder called it a hospital from the inside. So strange thing for the realtor to ask, maybe some one has an explanation for this or has done the same in the past.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:50 AM
 
26 posts, read 61,685 times
Reputation: 25
"But that is exactly what you were doing with this blanket statement:

Quote:
I notice that most "full service" listing agents provide less than full service...don't attend showings, no open houses, don't attend any inspections, don't even negotiate on behalf of their clients...(unless just being the conduit to pass numbers back and forth is 'negotiating'), yet they expect their full commission."

"Most" (def: more than 50%), especially when it can be backed up with statistics (however arguable you assume they may be), is not a "blanket statement". "All" is more like a blanket statement. Big difference.

Back to the quote above, I stand by the fact that more than 50% of listing agents do not do 100% of everything that can be considered part of full service, which isn't necessarily bad or against the seller's wishes. In fact, as you pointed out, it may physically impossible for someone working with a decent amount of clients to do so. My only point, again, is with that being the case and with the seller getting the results he paid for, why would the listing agent (or seller) get to judge if a rebater's actions with regard to his own client were not enough to warrant the full commission to do with as he pleases, as you suggested?

Thanks. I am having fun. Love a good debate!
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:59 AM
 
27,206 posts, read 46,599,387 times
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I do understand that not all the agents are given 100% full service but why do we have to pay 100% commision, they should be honest and ask less, so we can stop complaining and everybody will be more satisfied.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Just south of Denver since 1989
11,819 posts, read 34,323,376 times
Reputation: 8940
If you think that we all provide the same service for the same fee, then that idea is incongruent with reality.

Who am I to decide what "full" service means to them? I see my job as adapting my skills to their needs.

I provide "full" service to my clients and less than full service to customers. Most of the time I get paid a specific fee (coop) that is published by the seller or in MLS. But each buyer needs different items from me. Anything over my fee is rebated to my client (customers have no agreement, so they are entitled to have no rebate.) So yes, I can usually get paid more to represent less, but hey, they didn't want to sign an agreement with me (maybe more risk of not getting paid means more reward if I do.)

for example:

A buyer might need more help designing a winning strategy for getting a low price on a nice house. And therefore makes 7-10 offers over as many weeks. Each offer comes with hours research and preparation.

Another buyer might need more help getting financing, so we evaluate a few initial GFE's and then more GFE's. For some people the payment is more important than the property.

Still another needs more time in seeing and evaluating properties before during and after making an offer. They also need access to the crawl space and the attic on each property before making a decision to buy.

A fourth buys new construction, we see, we research, we haggle, we contract and then we wait 8 months and several inspections later to be paid.

They all get my time and my expertise, true. But they have different needs of time and expertise. And they are in different price points. I get paid enough, but I'd get paid more if buyers were willing to pay my hourly fee.

Then again, I don't need to get paid more. I get paid to win. I knew what the pay structure was when I got into the profession.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Barrington
63,919 posts, read 46,533,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxMark View Post
Have you come across this situation at your closings? If so, what was your experience? I have not, yet. But, I am considering some form of rebate/buyer discount as part of an overall consultation or fee-for-service model (like in most other professions).
I had one. It was my listing and it sold off an Open House. Buyers asked me to rebate the entire sell side fee or they were going to go out and get a discount agent to write up an offer.

Like most Realtors I do not get the entire fee and no way will my brokerage negotiate their split. I am free to do with my split as I want and so I did what what we do, negotiate.

In my state the seller has to approve/acknowledge dual agency and I did not want any surprises, come closing when the settlement statement ( cash transaction) showed the disbursement and disclosed the rebate.

I ended up with the classic FSBO- like situation where both the buyer and seller are trying to save the same commission, only this time, it was my split of the buy side. So I ended up eating my firm's standard Processing Fee (above and beyond the 5 %) and recieved a more than reasonable compensation of my very limited effort for the buy side. Heck, both sides gave their lawyer's power of attorney and closing occured in 15 minutes.

I would not entertain a rebate if I had put in the time required of a more typical sale because I am worth it. I do my homework and know the dirt.
And a discounter can't match what I do because no one can be all things to all people.
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