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Old 03-01-2008, 08:48 PM
 
1,174 posts, read 6,930,036 times
Reputation: 1104

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What's your professional opinion on, construction work being completed in a "good and workmanlike manner in accordance with the generally accepted standard of care in the industry (construction industry)?"

That quote, in part, relates to standards applied to residential construction in Nevada. It's what helps determine if there's a problem with the construction. It goes in greater depth, but there's only so much I can go into in a post.

Now that I've set up the standard, here's the scenario. I've been looking at a SFH property for investment purposes. Doing some due diligence, I came across some problems with the doors in the home. None seem to close properly, square, or without letting air seep through.

Although on the face it might seem like it's just a typical issue that could be addressed by adjustments, I discovered the real problem. The walls are not plumb. In other words, for a 10' wall height, the walls lean anywhere from 6-10" inward or outward along the length. At 10", that would put it about 8% out of plumb. It just depends on the wall. I didn't look at the entire length of the wall, or at all the walls, but everywhere I did check they were not plumb to the degree listed.

As it stands, the out of plumb condition makes it difficult, or perhaps impossible to properly fit the doors. It seems that they're fitted as best as possible and then caulk has been used to fill in the increasing gap, either towards the top or the bottom. It's hidden well, but it remains an indication of the larger problem.

So, from what you've seen in the industry, does such a thing indicate to you that the construction work was not completed in a "good and workmanship-like manner in accordance with the generally accepted standard of care in the industry?" Also, is an out of plumb wall, to the dregree listed, any kind of a problem or is it a big nothing? What do you think?

Thanks . . .

Last edited by garth; 03-01-2008 at 09:11 PM..
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
15,518 posts, read 40,267,236 times
Reputation: 17399
Based on the very brief description, I think the work has NOT been completed in a workmanlike manner. We have that clause in our new construction contracts as well. I would run away from that house personally...

I don't know if you have expansive soils in NV, but out here I can't imagine the settling cracks and issues that would arise in a home like that over the next few years. Houses settle unevenly to begin with. What may be 8% out of plumb now may be more later.

New construction is not perfect, it is after all built by we less than perfect humans, but that sounds really bad to me. A home should not be that far off after construction. Who knows maybe in 5 years, the floors will start to slope and sag.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:26 PM
 
Location: central, between Pepe's Tacos and Roberto's
2,086 posts, read 6,833,171 times
Reputation: 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by garth View Post
What's your professional opinion on, construction work being completed in a "good and workmanlike manner in accordance with the generally accepted standard of care in the industry (construction industry)?"

That quote, in part, relates to standards applied to residential construction in Nevada. It's what helps determine if there's a problem with the construction. It goes in greater depth, but there's only so much I can go into in a post.

Now that I've set up the standard, here's the scenario. I've been looking at a SFH property for investment purposes. Doing some due diligence, I came across some problems with the doors in the home. None seem to close properly, square, or without letting air seep through.

Although on the face it might seem like it's just a typical issue that could be addressed by adjustments, I discovered the real problem. The walls are not plumb. In other words, for a 10' wall height, the walls lean anywhere from 6-10" inward or outward along the length. At 10", that would put it about 8% out of plumb. It just depends on the wall. I didn't look at the entire length of the wall, or at all the walls, but everywhere I did check they were not plumb to the degree listed.

As it stands, the out of plumb condition makes it difficult, or perhaps impossible to properly fit the doors. It seems that they're fitted as best as possible and then caulk has been used to fill in the increasing gap, either towards the top or the bottom. It's hidden well, but it remains an indication of the larger problem.

So, from what you've seen in the industry, does such a thing indicate to you that the construction work was not completed in a "good and workmanship-like manner in accordance with the generally accepted standard of care in the industry?" Also, is an out of plumb wall, to the dregree listed, any kind of a problem or is it a big nothing? What do you think?

Thanks . . .
I've seen this quite a bit, actually, from a variety of large national builders. My home has similar issues, albeit not as severe. Centex was the builder on my neighborhood. One of the other homes that I looked at before I bought this one was built on unsettled soils. Many of the homes in that particular neighborhood were having issues with that and quite a few actually had pending litigation.

I personally put the bulk of the responsibility on the local government agencies responsible for the enforcement of codes. Obviously, without oversight the builders will put the houses up as fast as humanly possible. It helps the bottom line. I believe the ICC creates pretty uniform standards when it comes to the engineering and construction of buildings, obviously tweaked for certain special conditions that different locales may require. I don't see any reason why any builder/developer should not be held to those standards.

So, IMO I would say that it does indicate that the work was not completed in a manner in accordance with the standards of the industry. I would also say that the problems that you pointed out would not only cost whoever is living there quite a bit of money due to the lack of energy efficiency, but would be very difficult and costly to remedy in an acceptable manner. I can only imagine that the problem will get worse with time. Sorry for the previous diatribe, but the lack of construction standards and ethics in the valley irks me to no end.
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Old 03-02-2008, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Mokelumne Hill, CA & El Pescadero, BCS MX.
6,957 posts, read 22,251,408 times
Reputation: 6469
I built a house at the 7000' elevation with a crew one year. We built it from forms to finish and at the end of the summer, everything was plumb and square. After the first winter we went back to finish off the basement area and the snow loads (shedding snow off the south side first and then the north side) had racked the building 1/2" out of plumb.

You should pass on this home, that kind of quality can only be fixed by a match or a D8 Cat.
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:27 PM
 
1,174 posts, read 6,930,036 times
Reputation: 1104
Thaks all! I think I'm going to pass on this one, but I'll need to find some source that has an idea of what is an acceptable amount. It seems it's harder to find things built with skill nowadays, so I'm sure that I'll be presented with something that's similar in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMenscha View Post
You should pass on this home, that kind of quality can only be fixed by a match or a D8 Cat.
Ouch!
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:23 PM
 
1 posts, read 12,722 times
Reputation: 10
I just had a construction company build a deck in my backyard. 99% of the nails are out of alignment and it looks terribly sloppy. I asked them to re-do the entire deck and they have refused. I have filed a complaint with the BBB and am about to take them to small claims court. I came across this thread while researching for the case and would like some opinions on what constitutes "poor workmanship" when the problem is entirely aesthetic?
Thanks!
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Athens
470 posts, read 1,496,313 times
Reputation: 262
While it is typical for walls to not be perfectly plumb, I am talking maybe 1/8" - 1/4" on a 10' wall, there are some major workmanship problems with the home you are describing.
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