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Firstly, that's not really how an inspection works. Licensed inspectors don't poke around in electric panels, and neither should an everyday home buyer. There are usually 4-6 Phillips screws that hold the panel cover in place. The inspector simply removes the panel and looks inside, and/or takes a picture- no poking, no sticking their fingers or tongue against the bolts and wires.
Secondly, anyone who doesn't know what they are doing, who decides to go ahead and pull apart an electric panel or air handler, just to go sticking their body parts or screwdrivers in there for no reason other than curiosity are likely candidates for injuring themselves and others on a daily basis.
And so to avoid a potentially dangerous situation, prior to the inspection I would look for other signs of the buyer's obvious mental inadequacies- like if they excessively drool or repeatedly smack themselves when they hear something they don't like.
Thirdly, that's why you should just be there to witness what the buyer does or doesn't do, and don't make the assumption that you are responsible for others actions. There's really nothing you can do to stop a buyer, short of physical altercation, from doing whatever they want when they are there.
If they break a window, start a fire or cause a short circuit, the seller can sue them- not you for not stopping them from doing what ever stupid thing they decided to do.
What will the seller do about it if the buyer causes damage while he's there with an inspector? If the buyer decides to climb up on the roof, or shimmy up inside the chimney? Will you instruct the inspector to grab the buyer by the feet and physically restrain them? Should the inspector be liable for the buyer's stupidity?
Fair questions.
With all due respect, I've been to plenty of home inspections and have seen plenty of cover plates removed from service panels ( to include those lovely FP fire hazards). I've seen inspectors shift wiring out of the way to verify there are no double-taps, or missing paste for aluminum wiring connections, or loose breakers, or missing knockout plugs.
To your second paragraph.. I agree. But in this thread, where you have consumers advocating to do their own inspection, and agents admitting they may not be present at inspections.. that's a recipe for disaster. One I'll continue to try and avoid by advising my clients in hiring a professional inspector/contractor licensed in the field we're focusing on to help us (within our inspection contingency window).
To your third paragraph, I also agree, and as such, am at every buyers inspection (or an associate of mine is standing in)..
Could you please clarify, do you as the listing agent negotiate on behalf of the VA?
IOW, are you the one who decides, or do you give your expert opinion to the VA office, and someone from there decides whether to let it go or not?
I do not negotiate anything for the VA (neither the state of Virginia, or the Dept of Veteran Affairs), nor do I give an expert opinion related to any appraisal issues to the VA (Veteran Affairs) that might be brought up on a report. In most cases, the only person that can talk to the VA, essentially the appraiser assigned to the file, is the lenders processor. The appraiser shouldn't be talking to anyone that has a financial stake in the transaction (buyer, seller, either agent, loan officer).. The processor for the lender is typically the go between for any issue/repair discussion when necessary, along with reordering the follow up inspection to verify any subject to repairs have been completed satisfactorily.
But, with the majority of my clients being military due to my location, I have a pretty good grasp on what appraisal issues would pop up at a house, both before writing an offer when representing a buyer, or doing an initial seller consultation prior to putting on the market.
As to whether something is "let go" in an appraisal 'inspection', that's in the eyes of the appraiser and their (ever changing it seems) guidelines..
What will the seller do about it if the buyer causes damage while he's there with an inspector? If the buyer decides to climb up on the roof, or shimmy up inside the chimney? Will you instruct the inspector to grab the buyer by the feet and physically restrain them? Should the inspector be liable for the buyer's stupidity?
Fair questions.
More fair questions:
What if the buyer shows up to inspect while BOTH the inspector and the agents are present, and during such time, the buyer climbs up on the roof and breaks the guttering. Who's liable for the damage; the inspector, the listing agent, the buyer's agent, the homeowner?
Then if he falls from the roof and breaks his leg while trying to get back down- who is liable for that?
(Just wondering if it could it possibly be the dummy who broke stuff that is liable, as common sense would tell me)
Also, should RE agents be permitted to carry stun guns, to use on buyers who insist on trying to climb a ladder, or get into a crawl space, even in the face of direct orders from the agents who tell them they can't?
What if the buyer shows up to inspect while BOTH the inspector and the agents are present, and during such time, the buyer climbs up on the roof and breaks the guttering. Who's liable for the damage; the inspector, the listing agent, the buyer's agent, the homeowner?
Then if he falls from the roof and breaks his leg while trying to get back down- who is liable for that?
(Just wondering if it could it possibly be the dummy who broke stuff that is liable, as common sense would tell me)
Also, should RE agents be permitted to carry stun guns, to use on buyers who insist on trying to climb a ladder, or get into a crawl space, even in the face of direct orders from the agents who tell them they can't?
Not a lawyer, never been in this situation so not really sure how it would play out. But my contract states (I'm paraphrasing) that the property needs to convey in the condition it was in when contract was ratified.. Technically, with something damaged at inspection, the seller cannot deliver the property in the same condition from contract ratification.. But I imagine the seller could feel obligated to try and take the buyer to court for property damage if the deal were to fall apart.
Not a lawyer, never been in this situation so not really sure how it would play out. But my contract states (I'm paraphrasing) that the property needs to convey in the condition it was in when contract was ratified.. Technically, with something damaged at inspection, the seller cannot deliver the property in the same condition from contract ratification.. But I imagine the seller could feel obligated to try and take the buyer to court for property damage if the deal were to fall apart.
So it appears that you wouldn't feel any sense of liability, nor should you, in light that you had reminded the buyer that they will be liable for any damages that they cause or incur while examining the property.
I'm not a lawyer either, but it would be very hard to imagine a judge ruling that the buyer should be free from liability from the damage they cause, or that the buyer should be entitled to medical compensation from the HO, agent, or inspector because the buyer decided they wanted to climb to the roof.
So if we are both in agreement that the liability would squarely lie on the shoulders of the person at fault, as in most if not all cases, then why exactly is it a problem for you if the buyer wants to go poking around in the electrical panel? Unless for some reason, you really are concerned that you would be deemed liable for what the buyer does(I assure you that you would not, unless of course you advised or aided him/her in their pursuits, but please don't rely on just my expertise alone).
Last edited by riggy_house; 10-15-2017 at 02:29 PM..
in NC, the Buyer is responsible for any damage - whether they cause it, the agent does, or any inspector does.
of course, any worthwhile agent wouldn't be at fault but have their Buyer pay. They would pay instead.
What?? Am I reading this correct?? So if the agent or inspector burns the house down, the buyer pays?? Are you positive that you aren't misreading something. Please show me where this is mandated.
And also what do you mean when you say "any worthwhile agent wouldn't be at fault but have their Buyer pay. They would pay instead."? I assume you are just being redundant when you say the "they [buyer] would pay instead." Correct?
What?? Am I reading this correct?? So if the agent or inspector burns the house down, the buyer pays?? Are you positive that you aren't misreading something. Please show me where this is mandated.
And also what do you mean when you say "any worthwhile agent wouldn't be at fault but have their Buyer pay. They would pay instead."? I assume you are just being redundant when you say the "they [buyer] would pay instead." Correct?
Here is what the standard Las Vegas Residential Purchase Agreement says...The period referred to is the Due Diligence Period.
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During such Period, Buyer shall have the right to conduct, non- invasive/ non-destructive inspections of all structural, roofing, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, heating/air conditioning, water/well/septic, pool/spa, survey, square footage, and any other property or systems, through licensed and bonded contractors or other qualified professionals. Seller agrees to provide reasonable access to the Property to Buyer and Buyer’s inspectors. Buyer agrees to indemnify and hold Seller harmless with respect to any injuries suffered by Buyer or third parties present at Buyer’s request while on Seller’s Property conducting such inspections, tests or walk-throughs. Buyer’s indemnity shall not apply to any injuries suffered by Buyer or third parties present at Buyer’s request that are the result of an intentional tort, gross negligence or any misconduct or omission by Seller, Seller’s Agent or other third parties on the Property.
*************************************
So yes the buyer is responsible for any damage to inspectors or agents. However the responsibility for damage by the inspector is not covered and would fall to the inspector or agent who did it.
Here is what the standard Las Vegas Residential Purchase Agreement says...The period referred to is the Due Diligence Period.
*************************************
During such Period, Buyer shall have the right to conduct, non- invasive/ non-destructive inspections of all structural, roofing, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, heating/air conditioning, water/well/septic, pool/spa, survey, square footage, and any other property or systems, through licensed and bonded contractors or other qualified professionals. Seller agrees to provide reasonable access to the Property to Buyer and Buyer’s inspectors. Buyer agrees to indemnify and hold Seller harmless with respect to any injuries suffered by Buyer or third parties present at Buyer’s request while on Seller’s Property conducting such inspections, tests or walk-throughs. Buyer’s indemnity shall not apply to any injuries suffered by Buyer or third parties present at Buyer’s request that are the result of an intentional tort, gross negligence or any misconduct or omission by Seller, Seller’s Agent or other third parties on the Property.
*************************************
So yes the buyer is responsible for any damage to inspectors or agents. However the responsibility for damage by the inspector is not covered and would fall to the inspector or agent who did it.
Hi Ivmensh,
First of all, I have to say that "standard" contract is very poorly worded, and I do think anyone who uses such should be ashamed to do so. I can see why it has you confused though.
EDITED: But from what I see, no part of that deuce says anything about the Buyer being responsible for any damage to the property caused by the inspectors or agents, nor is the Buyer necessarily responsible for injuries to Buyer's third parties. But rather it's only a guarantee from the Buyer to the Seller that the Seller won't be held responsible for injuries to Buyer's parties.
It only says the Buyer is offering security to the seller, in the form of a promise to the Seller that IF the Seller gets sued, in the case that Buyer or Buyer's parties become injured on their own accord, then the Buyer will legally and financially offer security to Seller from such lawsuit. This isn't the same as being responsible for injuries incurred by the Buyer's third parties, as you have stated.
It also says any promise from the Buyer not to sue, ends the minute the Seller, agent or inspector do something grossly wrong, which would cause injury to the Buyer and/or Buyer's parties.
It says absolutely nothing about who shall pay for damages to the property, as obviously those damages would be paid by the party who was in gross negligence.
Moreover, what it not-so-simply says is: The Buyer can't guarantee the Seller won't be sued if ANY of the other parties besides the Buyer screw up.
Last edited by riggy_house; 10-15-2017 at 08:02 PM..
What?? Am I reading this correct?? So if the agent or inspector burns the house down, the buyer pays?? Are you positive that you aren't misreading something. Please show me where this is mandated.
And also what do you mean when you say "any worthwhile agent wouldn't be at fault but have their Buyer pay. They would pay instead."? I assume you are just being redundant when you say the "they [buyer] would pay instead." Correct?
you're not in NC, so it doesn't apply to you. I believe NCAR forms are available online, you're free to look them up. I can't copy/paste from our pdf's, so I'm not going to save a snip and then figure out how to post it for you.
I realize that 2nd sentence could be confusing. "They would pay instead" = any worthwhile agent would pay damages THEY caused.
If I were to break something at the buyers to-be house, I surely wouldn't expect them to pay for the repair. I would. But legally, they agree to be on the hook.
Of course, inspectors carry insurance. And I do too. I've never asked, but I would guess my insurance would cover my damage-causing too.
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