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Old 05-09-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Hermoso y tranquilo Panamá
11,829 posts, read 5,168,932 times
Reputation: 46503
Exclamation Doing the right thing even when no one is looking

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants View Post
Truthfully, I have found in life that more often than not, they do.

How many people really do the right thing for humankind, especially when no one else is looking, it won't benefit them and oftentimes might cost them, just because it's the right thing to do?
Well I would like to give you a few examples where people really do the right thing for 'humankind' even when 'no one is looking' and it could cost them a sale - it's called integrity. I'm sure others on here have their own stories; however, I'm going to share one from when I practiced in Colorado and a couple from here in Panama.

In Colorado, B4 mortgage brokers were required to be licensed/certified, there were a lot who manipulated the ratios, etc. and essentially got people into mortgages they couldn't afford. I was working with a first time homebuyer I'll call "L" for the sake of confidentiality who was told by one of these MB that he qualified for a home way above what I KNEW he could afford. I flat out told him, "L, you are 25, have 4 kids and we both know that you can't afford this high of a priced home - and I don't want to see you in foreclosure in 6 months - so PLEASE just be patient until I can find you a house that you CAN afford". Fortunately my client listened to me, I found him a fixer upper (he had construction skills), it was at a price they could afford and he, as well as his family, were very happy.

Now, in Panama where it truly is the 'Wild Wild West' in RE : I had one client who fell in love with a property, but I knew it was not being sold in the correct way (i.e., lot was held in a master corporation where he would essentially just own shares of the master corp) I told him that if anything happened to the master corp, i.e., lawsuits, liens etc. it would have an adverse effect on his property (in other words he could lose his land). He kept going on & on & on about 'oh, Joy, but I love this land'. So much so I flat out told him that if he didn't listen to me, I was going to have him sign a waiver that I told him he was making a bad decision, then I was out of it because I just didn't need the money that bad. He looked at me and said 'wow, a broker who is willing to forefeit commissions because they think I'm making a mistake?'. He did not buy that property, I found him a secure investment and now we're friends, I was invited to his wedding and reception.

The second 'example' has to do with the indians who are not well educated, if educated at all, and a lot cannot read. They had been raped and pillaged on their land because people would 'say' one thing, then when they got their check there were several '0's' missing. The Indians are NOT stupid, just ignorant because they lack an education. Before I would even accept a listing of their property the first thing I would ask is 'will you have a place to live when we sell your land?' - if they said no, then I told them I could not list their property because they would not have enough money to buy another. As well, since they couldn't afford to say pay for a plane ticket to fly to Panama City for a closing, we would have them sign the contracts in Bocas. I had an arrangement with the Notary there where I would take the man into the Notary's private office, hand him the contract - then i would step out of the room because no man, especially a proud one, will admit in front of a woman (& a white woman to boot) that he cannot read. Every single time I would hear the Notary reading the contract to the man - but when he did sign it, he KNEW what he was signing.

I could go on and on about how many times I have risked a commission to 'do the right thing'. Not only here in Panama, but in the States. It's called having ethics and while, yes, there are a lot in other countries and certainly a lot here, not all agents only care about what goes into their pocketbooks. In fact, I've fired top producers because that's all they cared about and put 'their' income before a client's needs; I'd tell them to take a hike because that was not how my brokerages operate.

So let's all try not to lump everyone into the same category because there are a lot of Realtors or agents around the world who actually do give a darn about promoting and protecting their clients best interests, and doing positive things for their community - even if it means no financial reward.
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Hermoso y tranquilo Panamá
11,829 posts, read 5,168,932 times
Reputation: 46503
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants View Post
Rather than muddy up this thread, I'll just +1 to OleCapt on everything he wrote!

You, my friend, are a STELLAR agent. Kudos. I repped you.
Why am I not surprised? Even when I took the time to answer all of his questions. Guess that's what I get for trying to 'explain' the purpose of buyer agency and respond as he requested. Just amazing, yet not surprising
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:18 PM
 
76 posts, read 162,662 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by c21boquetebocasgold View Post
Why am I not surprised? Even when I took the time to answer all of his questions. Guess that's what I get for trying to 'explain' the purpose of buyer agency and respond as he requested. Just amazing, yet not surprising
What do you want? A cookie?
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,758 posts, read 19,331,125 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by c21boquetebocasgold View Post
Why am I not surprised? Even when I took the time to answer all of his questions. Guess that's what I get for trying to 'explain' the purpose of buyer agency and respond as he requested. Just amazing, yet not surprising

Now let me show you the benefits of non BBA buyers agency...

Benefits to having a non BBA buyer agent are:

1) They work solely to promote and protect the buyers best interest
2) They cannot disclose motivating factors of the buyer including that the buyer would pay more than the list price of different terms than being offered by the seller
3) They must utilize the utmost care and fidelity on behalf of the client
4) Disclosing to buyer any adverse material facts known to broker
5) counseling buyer to any material benefits or risks in the transaction that are known to the broker
6)Advising buyer to obtain expert advise as to material facts about which broker knows but the specifics are beyond the expertise of the broker
7) Seeking a price and terms that are acceptable to buyer
8) cannot disclose any material information about the buyer unless it would constitute fraud or dishonest dealings
9) any facts or suspisions that would stigmatize or psychologically impact the property
10) cannot disclose the buyer's identity without express written permission
11) presenting all offers in a timely manner

As well, if through no fault of the buyer a transaction is not completed, there is no compensation owed to the buyer agent.

Now there is my list. Would you care to point out where your list is different?

And let us cut to the chase...if you are competent and ethical you do Buyer's Agency exactly the same way I do. The only difference is you have a contract to keep your client working only with you while I have to accomplish the same thing by doing a great job. Which is the better deal for the client?
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:55 PM
 
982 posts, read 199,703 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by c21boquetebocasgold View Post
Well I would like to give you a few examples where people really do the right thing for 'humankind' even when 'no one is looking' and it could cost them a sale - it's called integrity. I'm sure others on here have their own stories; however, I'm going to share one from when I practiced in Colorado and a couple from here in Panama.

In Colorado, B4 mortgage brokers were required to be licensed/certified, there were a lot who manipulated the ratios, etc. and essentially got people into mortgages they couldn't afford. I was working with a first time homebuyer I'll call "L" for the sake of confidentiality who was told by one of these MB that he qualified for a home way above what I KNEW he could afford. I flat out told him, "L, you are 25, have 4 kids and we both know that you can't afford this high of a priced home - and I don't want to see you in foreclosure in 6 months - so PLEASE just be patient until I can find you a house that you CAN afford". Fortunately my client listened to me, I found him a fixer upper (he had construction skills), it was at a price they could afford and he, as well as his family, were very happy.

Now, in Panama where it truly is the 'Wild Wild West' in RE : I had one client who fell in love with a property, but I knew it was not being sold in the correct way (i.e., lot was held in a master corporation where he would essentially just own shares of the master corp) I told him that if anything happened to the master corp, i.e., lawsuits, liens etc. it would have an adverse effect on his property (in other words he could lose his land). He kept going on & on & on about 'oh, Joy, but I love this land'. So much so I flat out told him that if he didn't listen to me, I was going to have him sign a waiver that I told him he was making a bad decision, then I was out of it because I just didn't need the money that bad. He looked at me and said 'wow, a broker who is willing to forefeit commissions because they think I'm making a mistake?'. He did not buy that property, I found him a secure investment and now we're friends, I was invited to his wedding and reception.

The second 'example' has to do with the indians who are not well educated, if educated at all, and a lot cannot read. They had been raped and pillaged on their land because people would 'say' one thing, then when they got their check there were several '0's' missing. The Indians are NOT stupid, just ignorant because they lack an education. Before I would even accept a listing of their property the first thing I would ask is 'will you have a place to live when we sell your land?' - if they said no, then I told them I could not list their property because they would not have enough money to buy another. As well, since they couldn't afford to say pay for a plane ticket to fly to Panama City for a closing, we would have them sign the contracts in Bocas. I had an arrangement with the Notary there where I would take the man into the Notary's private office, hand him the contract - then i would step out of the room because no man, especially a proud one, will admit in front of a woman (& a white woman to boot) that he cannot read. Every single time I would hear the Notary reading the contract to the man - but when he did sign it, he KNEW what he was signing.

I could go on and on about how many times I have risked a commission to 'do the right thing'. Not only here in Panama, but in the States. It's called having ethics and while, yes, there are a lot in other countries and certainly a lot here, not all agents only care about what goes into their pocketbooks. In fact, I've fired top producers because that's all they cared about and put 'their' income before a client's needs; I'd tell them to take a hike because that was not how my brokerages operate.

So let's all try not to lump everyone into the same category because there are a lot of Realtors or agents around the world who actually do give a darn about promoting and protecting their clients best interests, and doing positive things for their community - even if it means no financial reward.
I'm even sorrier you took all this time to write all this b/c I wasn't talking about real estate. I'm so sorry you misunderstood. I specifically referred to life in general, not real estate "professionals." I don't read long posts for the most part. I scan them quickly. More than a sentence or two and I'm out. I'm sure people do that with my posts as well. Well, hopefully someone will benefit from what you wrote.
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Old 05-09-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Hermoso y tranquilo Panamá
11,829 posts, read 5,168,932 times
Reputation: 46503
Lightbulb The Difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Now let me show you the benefits of non BBA buyers agency...

Benefits to having a non BBA buyer agent are:

1) They work solely to promote and protect the buyers best interest
2) They cannot disclose motivating factors of the buyer including that the buyer would pay more than the list price of different terms than being offered by the seller
3) They must utilize the utmost care and fidelity on behalf of the client
4) Disclosing to buyer any adverse material facts known to broker
5) counseling buyer to any material benefits or risks in the transaction that are known to the broker
6)Advising buyer to obtain expert advise as to material facts about which broker knows but the specifics are beyond the expertise of the broker
7) Seeking a price and terms that are acceptable to buyer
8) cannot disclose any material information about the buyer unless it would constitute fraud or dishonest dealings
9) any facts or suspisions that would stigmatize or psychologically impact the property
10) cannot disclose the buyer's identity without express written permission
11) presenting all offers in a timely manner

As well, if through no fault of the buyer a transaction is not completed, there is no compensation owed to the buyer agent.

Now there is my list. Would you care to point out where your list is different?

And let us cut to the chase...if you are competent and ethical you do Buyer's Agency exactly the same way I do. The only difference is you have a contract to keep your client working only with you while I have to accomplish the same thing by doing a great job. Which is the better deal for the client?
Everything you state is considered a 'fiduciary' responsibility to the buyer. There is no fiduciary responsibility unless one is representing them as their buyer agent and there is a signed buyer agency contract executed - essentially in the above case the buyer has no dedicated buyer agent who is obligated to not disclose certain facts, etc. that are clearly defined in the buyer agency contract; however, I do commend you on practicing according to a higher Code of Ethics. A lot do not; just like a lot of buyers want all of the benefits from a dedicated buyer agent, but even if the Realtor does a great job and performs exceptionally, will still bypass them and 'go it alone'.

But what you left out in your post, olecapt, is part of what was at the bottom of my reply which was the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by c21boquetebocasgold View Post

There were many buyers where I felt confident that they would not bypass me as their agent and I never required a signed buyer agency contract; however, when dealing with a client (and after 15 years working with attorneys I was pretty good at judging a person's character), if I felt there was a very good chance that they would use me to put in a lot of time, effort and money into locating a property for them - only to have them say 'well, thanks for everything' then go around me, then, yes the only way I would work with them was if there was a buyer agency contract in force. If they didn't want to commit to me, then I didn't accept them as clients.

A good agent depends on referrals and one does not get referrals if they do a crappy job. Consequently, good agents who specialize in buyer representation get a ton of referrals.
So, no, and to reiterate, I do not always require a signed buyer agency contract; but you bet, if I feel a client is one that will use me or one of my agents to do all the legwork, locate a property, initial due diligence and then say 'bye, thanks for your help' then go it alone, then yes we execute one.
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Old 05-09-2009, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Hermoso y tranquilo Panamá
11,829 posts, read 5,168,932 times
Reputation: 46503
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants View Post
I'm even sorrier you took all this time to write all this b/c I wasn't talking about real estate. I'm so sorry you misunderstood. I specifically referred to life in general, not real estate "professionals." I don't read long posts for the most part. I scan them quickly. More than a sentence or two and I'm out. I'm sure people do that with my posts as well. Well, hopefully someone will benefit from what you wrote.
Since the thread and 99% of the postings were concerning RE, it was an assumption on my part that you were referring to Realtors. A lot of your posts haven't exactly been very complimentary towards the profession, so I guess that's why I made the incorrect assumption you were directing the comment towards Realtors. And considering I type close to 90WPM, it didn't take a lot of time to share real life experiences which hopefully will show people that not all real estate professionals are self-serving, greedy scumbags.
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Old 05-09-2009, 06:32 PM
 
982 posts, read 199,703 times
Reputation: 249
As one who utilizes real estate professionals every now and then, I can attest that they all most definitely are not. In fact, I don't know any who are "selfish, greedy scumbags." I'm sorry that someone, anyone left you feeling that way. That is just wrong.

I have always only said that for a lot of people, most people in fact, it's an expensive unnecessary service, if you want to do the requisite work.

Again, I thought I prefaced my statement with life in general but perhaps I didn't. Again, sorry to be misleading.
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Old 05-09-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Hermoso y tranquilo Panamá
11,829 posts, read 5,168,932 times
Reputation: 46503
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants View Post
As one who utilizes real estate professionals every now and then, I can attest that they all most definitely are not. In fact, I don't know any who are "selfish, greedy scumbags." I'm sorry that someone, anyone left you feeling that way. That is just wrong.

I have always only said that for a lot of people, most people in fact, it's an expensive unnecessary service, if you want to do the requisite work.

Again, I thought I prefaced my statement with life in general but perhaps I didn't. Again, sorry to be misleading.
No harm, no foul. Enjoy your evening. Joy
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Old 05-09-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,758 posts, read 19,331,125 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by c21boquetebocasgold View Post
Everything you state is considered a 'fiduciary' responsibility to the buyer. There is no fiduciary responsibility unless one is representing them as their buyer agent and there is a signed buyer agency contract executed - essentially in the above case the buyer has no dedicated buyer agent who is obligated to not disclose certain facts, etc. that are clearly defined in the buyer agency contract; however, I do commend you on practicing according to a higher Code of Ethics. A lot do not; just like a lot of buyers want all of the benefits from a dedicated buyer agent, but even if the Realtor does a great job and performs exceptionally, will still bypass them and 'go it alone'.

But what you left out in your post, olecapt, is part of what was at the bottom of my reply which was the following:


So, no, and to reiterate, I do not always require a signed buyer agency contract; but you bet, if I feel a client is one that will use me or one of my agents to do all the legwork, locate a property, initial due diligence and then say 'bye, thanks for your help' then go it alone, then yes we execute one.

Sorry but you don't know much about agency apparently. The onset of agency is a state specific thing and in no way requres any written agreement. My "agency" status is the same as any other buyers agent.

There may well be requirements that one have a BAA to have a Buyer relationship. But that is simply state law being manipulated by the Brokers.

And we do not have subagency in Nevada or most places in the west. And it can and should be done away with in TX or wherever. Simply a throwback to a bygone era.

So what you have done is actually confirm that we both have actually the same fiduciary duties to our client - just that you did not know it. So we are now at the point where we both agree to the same set of duties. But you get a lock on the client and I don't...now why is that good for the client?
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