U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Real Estate
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:14 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,871 posts, read 57,924,091 times
Reputation: 29301

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
And how in the world can someone be a procurring cause if they didn't even show the property?
On this point... they wouldn't.
Any potential buyers would HAVE TO come in to the home through some other arrangement.

Q: over the course of a years activity...would the listing agent earn more commissions in this manner?

Quote:
What other profession does this happen with where a consumer goes to a professional and expects them to do things on their behalf, then not get paid? Only in real estate.
Only real estate? tsk.
I can think of quite a few *commission sales jobs* where the salesman will do all sorts of things on spec.
How about test driving that used car to hear and feel it... and see how the leg room really is?

Want some more?

Quote:
The problem isn't with the broker who would be working with that buyer, but with the buyer who then chooses to go to a second broker to follow through on their transaction.
Then don't show the homes you have listed. How do you think your sellers will react to that?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,745 posts, read 31,577,375 times
Reputation: 12110
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
In Illinois it is assumed that the broker is working for the party they are working with unless they dislose otherwise. The problem isn't with the broker who would be working with that buyer, but with the buyer who then chooses to go to a second broker to follow through on their transaction. It's the buyer who needs to be upfront and tell the broker that they don't want a relationship with them. The broker can then decide whether or not to work with that buyer on that basis. I didn't write the laws, I only follow them.

What other profession does this happen with where a consumer goes to a professional and expects them to do things on their behalf, then not get paid? Only in real estate.

And how in the world can someone be a procurring cause if they didn't even show the property?
Here is the legal standard in Oregon for procuring cause. You'll see showing the property isn't in the clause.

“When a broker is engaged by an owner of property to find a purchaser for it, the broker earns his commission when (a) he produces a purchaser ready, willing and able to buy on the terms fixed by the owner, (b) the purchaser enters into a binding contract with the owner to do so, and (c) the purchaser completes the transaction by closing the title in accordance with the provisions of the contract. If the contract is not consummated because of lack of financial ability of the buyer to perform or because of any other default of his, * * * there is no right to commission against the seller. On the other hand, if the failure of completion of the contract results from the wrongful act or interference of the seller, the broker's claim is valid and must be paid. In short, in the absence of default by the seller, the broker's right to commission against the seller comes into existence only when his buyer performs in accordance with the contract of sale."

Here is the legal generic definition. “The proximate cause; the cause originating a series of events, which, without break in their continuity, result in the accomplishment of the prime object.” The without break is really important. Once the buyer calls another agent to write the offer, they broke the continuity and the listing agent is no longer the procuring cause. Typically the one that writes the offer wins.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Tempe, Arizona
4,511 posts, read 11,561,956 times
Reputation: 2180
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
...And how in the world can someone be a procurring cause if they didn't even show the property?
By handling the other 99% of the transaction through to closing. Only showing the home is not procuring cause.

Perhaps you should review this link:

http://www.realtor.org/LetterLw.nsf/...Document&Login

Quote:
Whether a broker is the procuring cause of a sale must be factually determined on a case-by-case basis. Many factors can impact a determination of procuring cause, but no one factor is by itself determinative. Procuring cause is in fact the interplay of factors which together demonstrate that the unbroken efforts of a specific broker were responsible for the buyer making the decision to consummate the sale on terms which the seller found acceptable. In other words, a broker who is the procuring cause of a sale is a sine qua non of the sale -- the sale would not have occurred but for the broker's efforts.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:29 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,749,727 times
Reputation: 934
There IS a break in the transaction when the 2nd agent gets involved after not having shown the property. They're starting part way into the transaction that has not been continuously in their control.

It would be different if that buyer came back a few months later and was shown the house by that 2nd agent who then followed all the way through.

With respect to car sales, show me where there is a state law that creates an agency relationship between a potential buyer and the salesman. Also show me where the car salesman is a licensed professional. Selling houses isn't retail selling. It also involves working with the buyer in a consulting sense. So the buyer receives something of value from the agent that they decide to blow off.

And if someone were to take up a car salesman's time then walk over to another salesman to write up the deal then you can be assured that the mgr would get involved and that there would be a commission dispute.

Last edited by yousah; 07-18-2012 at 05:43 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 05:52 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,871 posts, read 57,924,091 times
Reputation: 29301
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
There IS a break in the transaction when the 2nd agent gets involved after not having shown the property. They're starting part way into the transaction that has not been continuously in their control.
And that matters how?
Seriously, is your business model dependent on claiming some sort of legal right over every
warm body that passes over the threshold of a listing? If so... yer plain and simple nuts!

Quote:
And if someone were to take up a car salesman's time then walk over to another salesman to write up the deal then you can be assured that the mgr would get involved and that there would be a commission dispute.
Wasn't this point settled about 3 pages back?
Oh yeah, you didn't like that interpretation of the MLS contract.

This is beginning to feel like a loop.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 06:12 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,749,727 times
Reputation: 934
You have some sort of serious problem with reasoning. The only loop is that you continue to aruge against yourself.

Who said that a commission is due to every warm body that crosses over the threshhold? I certainly didn't. This issue is about an agent showing a house to a buyer who then goes to another agent to write up the offer. That's entirely different than demanding a commission from every buyer who walks through the door.

I can't even figure out your last paragraph. Maybe this is why you have 6,000 something posts in the last few years. You figure that if you keep blasting out nonsense that people will finally believe you.

And by the way, telling me that I make too many assumptions is an assumption in itself. Hypocrisy?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth, USA
1,516 posts, read 1,652,284 times
Reputation: 2940
Quote:
Originally Posted by mading6 View Post
This is kind of long and I apologize.

Okay so I saw a property for sale on the Internet. I called the realty company and asked for a viewing. Agent met us and showed us property.

We liked the property so got an agent (because we did not want dual agent) and we didnt want an agent earlier because we are always looking for good deals to buy.
This happens alot where I am and is the one of the reasons why I don't like working with buyers anymore. They go off trying to find "deals" and end up messing things up by not being honest or not knowing how things work.

If you have an agent or plan on using your own agent then you must let the listing agent know. Most of the time the listing agent wont show you the house and have your agent make arrangements. I think this is where buyers are sneaky and want full access to homes on the listing agents expense and then go get their cousin or mother in law to write the deal.

They end up messing it all up because now they can't have their own representation after the listing agent showed them the house. You didn't have an agency agreement so when the listing agent showed you the house, they can be entitled to the commission due to procuring cause. I've even seen in the MLS where it states "If we show your buyer the house, we are entitled to full commission" or "If we show your client the house, you will only get a referral fee."

Other agents can argue if this is legal or not but I don't get involved in situations like this. I'd rather let clients like this walk. Too much hassle and deception because they are always trying to cut people out and make deals. Good luck.

Last edited by behindthescreen; 07-18-2012 at 07:06 PM.. Reason: typos
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 07:32 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 38,320,873 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
You have some sort of serious problem with reasoning. The only loop is that you continue to aruge against yourself.

Who said that a commission is due to every warm body that crosses over the threshhold? I certainly didn't. This issue is about an agent showing a house to a buyer who then goes to another agent to write up the offer. That's entirely different than demanding a commission from every buyer who walks through the door.

I can't even figure out your last paragraph. Maybe this is why you have 6,000 something posts in the last few years. You figure that if you keep blasting out nonsense that people will finally believe you.

And by the way, telling me that I make too many assumptions is an assumption in itself. Hypocrisy?

If you ever wonder why agents have a bad rep you only have to look at yourself to figure out why.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,745 posts, read 31,577,375 times
Reputation: 12110
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
There IS a break in the transaction when the 2nd agent gets involved after not having shown the property. They're starting part way into the transaction that has not been continuously in their control.
Yes. The buyer breaks the chain with the first agent and starts a new chain with the second. It's that new chain that causes procuring cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthescreen View Post
This happens alot where I am and is the one of the reasons why I don't like working with buyers anymore. They go off trying to find "deals" and end up messing things up by not being honest or not knowing how things work.
How are they supposed to know how things work when agents don't tell them upfront? Really, do you think procuring cause is intuitive for consumers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthescreen View Post
They end up messing it all up because now they can't have their own representation after the listing agent showed them the house. You didn't have an agency agreement so when the listing agent showed you the house, they can be entitled to the commission due to procuring cause. I've even seen in the MLS where it states "If we show your buyer the house, we are entitled to full commission" or "If we show your client the house, you will only get a referral fee."
Our MLS doesn't allow conditions. You can only do conditions with a private letter to a brokerage or agent off the MLS. And no...showing a listing isn't procuring cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthescreen View Post
agents can argue if this is legal or not but I don't get involved in situations like this. I'd rather let clients like this walk. Too much hassle and deception because they are always trying to cut people out and make deals. Good luck.
I think a few consumers are deceptive. Most just don't know about procuring cause because no one tells them and it isn't like it is a common term used by the general public. They agents get all mad because they don't educate consumers about how our payment system works.

See...here's the deal guys. I have a buyer agent business practices sheet that every prospect sees. On it, it has my business hours, policies and procedures. I have an entire paragraph dedicated to procuring cause, and guess what...buyers understand when you explain it to them. It really is that simple. So, think about a real estate industry where we explain procuring cause to clients upfront so they understand and can make an informed choice about whether they want to be involved in a commission battle or not. I know...radical.

Have either of you ever explained procuring cause to an unagented buyer over the phone before trying to capture them as a client by claiming procuring cause? Or do you just hope to put so much pressure on them that they cave and become your clients, when they really have a choice?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2012, 09:50 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,749,727 times
Reputation: 934
What about the agent that the buyer goes to after having seen the property with the first agent? That's where this nonsense can stop. The second agent is starting up a relationship with a buyer and a property for which another agent already got involved. That second agent is going into this relationship with the knowledge that it's likely to become a commission issue.

I realize that buyers aren't necessarily familiar with how the commission structure works. But the idea of going to one person and using their time, then going to another and leaving the first person out of the transaction is wrong in a common sense way. We all are consumers who receive services from various professionals and are aware of the fact that we don't shaft the first guy after having been provided service. It's different if there is a customer service issue with someone; then it makes sense to go elsewhere.

And Manderly, what exactly do you disagree with? Do you have a problem with people getting paid for providing services?

Every time I hear about the public perception and commissions it's always based upon consumers not wanting to pay for services that they receive. Agents are gready for simply wanting to be paid for their work.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Real Estate
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top