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Old 07-19-2012, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,753 posts, read 31,638,789 times
Reputation: 12126

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
Honesty is all that's needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
No, unless they ask. It's none of their business on how the coop aspect of the MLS works.
So honesty is only required by consumers towards agents, but we have no obligation to be honest back? I completely disagree. If consumers understood it better, they'd call their buyer agents directly from the get go. They don't understand which is why they make unintentional mistakes in how they approach seeing homes. You have a choice as a listing agent. You can assume they are all stupid and trying to make you work for free, or you can assume they don't understand procuring cause and how the co-op works.

When someone calls to see my listing, I do what you do and ask if they are represented by an agent. If they say yes, I explain procuring cause to them so they know not to call listing agents for showings. I am not so petty that I'd argue over the buyer agent commission, but clearly there are agents that do. I take the time to help those consumers understand that. Before you think I'm wasting my time and I'm not getting paid for that, just remember that whatever impression you create will help or hinder your client in negotiations if they decide to write an offer.


I don't think you realize how self centered your posts sound to consumers.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:20 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,753,725 times
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Where am I being dishonest? Nowhere. There are hundreds of make-believe scenarios that buyers can get themselves into and there's no way that I know which scenario to voluntarily address upfront. If they ask about it then I'll answer it. But there are hundreds of other scenarios that I can be accused of not answering. There's no intention to hide anything. It's just you have a preference for explaining this particular scenario and try to force it on others. If it's not this scenario then it's bound to be another- whatever you feel should have been addressed up front. I can come up with hundreds of scenarios that you don't address with your buyers then accuse you of being dishonest, using your logic.

I don't assume upfront that a buyer is going to take advantage of me so the thought doesn't occur to me to explain upfront the situation that would occur if they were to do that. You could also address the hundreds of type of situations a buyer could get themselves into if they were to try to deceive the seller. Do you spend a whole day explaining that to a buyer? We can't deal with unknowns here and be expected to address every sort of situation that can come up. But the buyer can sure be honest with us and tell us his or her intentions so that we may address those situations after we understand what the buyer is going to do.

But like I've said before, do you actually think that a buyer who has no intention of using the original agent is actually going to be honest about their intentions? No! And that's where the problems being. Are you telling me that the real estate business is somehow unique in that buyers can't figure out that it's a bad idea to 'use' an agent then go elsewhere to consumate the sale? I don't believe buyers are that ignorant and that the majority of them do it intentionally through no fault of the agent.

And in the case of a buyer who is already represented then that situation is really bad. A represented buyer should have been consulted by their agent to explain the process. It's that agent that will oftentimes tell their buyer to go out and look at houses on their own, especially with open houses. But the listing agent who has a buyer show up for a showing is the one who is being set up.

In practice, I follow up with potential buyers. So it's not likely that they leave the house without me having a follow up plan with them. They'd really have to go out of their way to not tell me that they're going to someone else to write up the offer. They'd be the ones being deceptive.

Do you go to a restaurant and get great service then give the tip to another waitress? Using your reasoning, that first waitress was at fault for not explaining to you how their tip system works. Or, you can use common sense and realize that there's something not right about having a real estate agent show you a house then blowing off that person and going to another agent to write up the offer; unless of course the first agent gave really poor customer service.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,753 posts, read 31,638,789 times
Reputation: 12126
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
Where am I being dishonest? Nowhere. There are hundreds of make-believe scenarios that buyers can get themselves into and there's no way that I know which scenario to voluntarily address upfront. If they ask about it then I'll answer it. But there are hundreds of other scenarios that I can be accused of not answering. There's no intention to hide anything. It's just you have a preference for explaining this particular scenario and try to force it on others. If it's not this scenario then it's bound to be another- whatever you feel should have been addressed up front. I can come up with hundreds of scenarios that you don't address with your buyers then accuse you of being dishonest, using your logic.

I don't assume upfront that a buyer is going to take advantage of me so the thought doesn't occur to me to explain upfront the situation that would occur if they were to do that. You could also address the hundreds of type of situations a buyer could get themselves into if they were to try to deceive the seller. Do you spend a whole day explaining that to a buyer? We can't deal with unknowns here and be expected to address every sort of situation that can come up. But the buyer can sure be honest with us and tell us his or her intentions so that we may address those situations after we understand what the buyer is going to do.

But like I've said before, do you actually think that a buyer who has no intention of using the original agent is actually going to be honest about their intentions? No! And that's where the problems being. Are you telling me that the real estate business is somehow unique in that buyers can't figure out that it's a bad idea to 'use' an agent then go elsewhere to consumate the sale? I don't believe buyers are that ignorant and that the majority of them do it intentionally through no fault of the agent.
I just totally disagree with you. Most consumers call the listing agent directly not understanding that it could put their buyer agent in a commission dispute. So do a test for me if you think they are all being so deceptive...the next few buyers that call to see one of your listings that are represented, explain procuring cause/co-op and see what their reaction is to that information. Let them know by going directly through a listing agent, they are setting the buyer agent up for a dispute. I bet you most won't have a clue about that.

There isn't another industry like the real estate industry so comparisons to other industries are mute. A waitress doesn't have a legal fiduciary duty to the consumer. A car salesman doesn't have a legal fiduciary duty to the person buying a car. The fact that we have a fiduciary duty in our profession changes the ballgame.

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. You are an adult and can do what you want. I'm just telling you that the manner in which you are expressing your business practices online sounds petty and selfish to consumers. And yes, I have about once a year, have a prospective buyer ask to see my listing, tell me they don't have an agent, but intend to hire one if they like the house. When I show them the house, I give them the names of three really good agents in town in case they want to write an offer because it is to the benefit of my client to have a good, reasonable, ethical agent on the opposite side of the transaction.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
19,897 posts, read 36,468,749 times
Reputation: 21359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfall View Post
So honesty is only required by consumers towards agents, but we have no obligation to be honest back? I completely disagree. If consumers understood it better, they'd call their buyer agents directly from the get go. They don't understand which is why they make unintentional mistakes in how they approach seeing homes. You have a choice as a listing agent. You can assume they are all stupid and trying to make you work for free, or you can assume they don't understand procuring cause and how the co-op works.

When someone calls to see my listing, I do what you do and ask if they are represented by an agent. If they say yes, I explain procuring cause to them so they know not to call listing agents for showings. I am not so petty that I'd argue over the buyer agent commission, but clearly there are agents that do. I take the time to help those consumers understand that. Before you think I'm wasting my time and I'm not getting paid for that, just remember that whatever impression you create will help or hinder your client in negotiations if they decide to write an offer.


I don't think you realize how self centered your posts sound to consumers.
Apparently I have to spread some rep around before giving you more, but I wanted to say, absolutely. Listing agents are ALREADY paid to show their own listings, by the seller. (Our broker makes sure we all understand this.) A listing agent who thinks that's the lion's share of bringing a buyer and that they should get a cut of the buyer's agent's part of the commission for opening a door does a disservice to our profession (and probably doesn't do all that good a job for their seller, if they don't realize what a buyer's agent brings to the table). Buyers might not know the details of how things work in our profession, but an attitude such as that displayed by yousah usually comes over in other ways, and their attitude towards the buyers can very easily make the buyer want their OWN representation and might look with a jaundiced eye at anything said by the listing agent during negotiations, so the listing agent has then done their client the seller an injustice.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:43 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,753,725 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
...the next few buyers that call to see one of your listings that are represented, explain procuring cause/co-op and see what their reaction is to that information.
That's the job of their agent!!! When they decide to be represented by an agent then THAT agent needs to control the situation and clearly educate their buyer on how the business works. It's not my job to be discussing these things with someone elses client and most likely is illegal because I would be interferring in that protected relationship. As soon as a represented buyer starts requesting showings on their own, and not through their agent, then something has already broken down on their side.

If a represented buyer shows up at an open house then I'll show them the house because it's in the best interest of my client. But as soon as they start having questions other than about the particulars of the house then I send them back to their lazy agent. If someone calls my office and wants to see one of my listings, and they are already represented, then I tell them to contact their agent. I cannot legally interfere in that relationship. But if they lie to me then request a showing then they are setting their agent up for a commission dispute.

It's agents like you who create these sorts of problems by letting your buyers do these sorts of things. I can assure you that any buyer-clients of mine aren't going around and working with listing agents without my assistance. If they attempt to do that then they'll be in violation of our agreement.

And I still argue that it's common sense that when you request services from someone that you should expect that you somehow might be on the line for payment. So ask! I don't go around to attornies and get legal advice and not expect to pay for it. It doesn't matter if they don't understand the MLS concept, they sure do understand that business people aren't in the business of giving away their services at no charge.

Feel free to give your clients away like you mentioned. I feel that my buyers and sellers are best represented by me and would never consider that as an option unless either party did not agree to dual agency. In our state, there's still a lot services that can be provided to both parties even in a dual agency relationship. So for the most part neither party is at any significant disadvantage and is probably better in that situation because the entire coordinating of their transaction is being handled by just one agent.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:48 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,753,725 times
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Quote:
A listing agent who thinks that's the lion's share of bringing a buyer and that they should get a cut of the buyer's agent's part of the commission for opening a door does a disservice to our profession (and probably doesn't do all that good a job for their seller, if they don't realize what a buyer's agent brings to the table).
How about the buyer's agent who sent their buyer to that house to begin with? And you think it's the listing agent who created that problem? What about the lazy buyer's agent who should have been the one showing that house. Geez.

And, "opening a door"? Is that what you consider a showing is? Not around here. If a buyer wants to see a house then there will be lots of questions from me. I'm not a tour guide. I'll be finding out what their needs are, getting them prequalified, planning future showings, etc. So after all this work is done I don't expect another agent to simply write up the offer and take my part of the commission. But you do apparently.

I can see where both of you are coming from. You are the type who want to sign up buyers as clients then not really work with them. It's OK for them, in your mind, to then go take advantage of listing agents. After all, you make more money doing it that way as compared to actually being with your buyers when they want to see houses. And which practice is it that is giving real estate a bad name? I'd clearly say its agents like you two who don't want to actually represent your clients and want to push your workload off onto others.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 38,391,825 times
Reputation: 16101
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post
And I still argue that it's common sense that when you request services from someone that you should expect that you somehow might be on the line for payment. So ask! I don't go around to attornies and get legal advice and not expect to pay for it. It doesn't matter if they don't understand the MLS concept, they sure do understand that business people aren't in the business of giving away their services at no charge.
Two examples:

1. You do a showing for a buyer as we have already discussed.
2. A buyer has a long list of questions that gets passed on to you through the buyer's agent.

In both cases have you not been requested to do some work on behalf of the buyer?
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:01 PM
 
936 posts, read 1,753,725 times
Reputation: 934
I'm not agreeing that the buyer should be using me for showings if they are already represented. So that scenario is the one I am arguing against.

And with your second point, that IS the way it is suppose to work in that the buyer's agent should be the one forwarding those questions. The buyer's agent is now doing their job and I have no problem with that because all of the parties are doing their respective work on behalf of their clients. That's way different than when someone (buyer and/or their agent) sends the buyer on showings with other agents and expects them to do all the work with no compensation.

There's another twist to this too. Sometimes an agent is busy and wants to have their buyer get a showing via the listing agent. All they have to do is call and ask. Those are the classy agents who call up and ask for a favor. There's no problem doing that for them. But that's a big different between agents who consider it a normal business practice to have others do their work.

Last edited by yousah; 07-19-2012 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,753 posts, read 31,638,789 times
Reputation: 12126
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post

It's agents like you who create these sorts of problems by letting your buyers do these sorts of things.
Not at all. See here is where you lack maturity in having a reasonable discussion and making assumptions is never a good idea. I've had one buyer in my 8 years go rogue and call the listing agent to show them homes. My buyers are well versed on how things work after our consultation but I respect that other agents aren't as thorough as me and consumers get confused.
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Salem, OR
13,753 posts, read 31,638,789 times
Reputation: 12126
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah View Post

Feel free to give your clients away like you mentioned.
And there we have it. The real agenda.

See, here is the deal. The person viewing your listing isn't your client. When you guys required to present the agency information sheet? Out here it is at first substantial contact, like a showing or open house. So if I show my listing, I'm legally required to remind the buyer that I represent the seller and not them.
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