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Old 08-04-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
These are the same, state-legal forms used by realtors and lawyers. The trick is knowing what to put in the blanks in order to best protect your own interests.

Not true.

The REALTOR forms in Arizona are copyrighted and available for use only by REALTORS
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMenscha View Post
As an example, they have a laundry list of things they refer to as "personal property included". Amongst them were wall to wall carpeting, air conditioning and heating systems, the hot water heater and a few others.

We have a similar situation with the REALTOR form(s) in AZ. The items came about after the cases where sellers REMOVED the items mentioned - I had a seller (not my listing thank goodness) that removed 4000 sq ft of carpet. Of course the buyer won but the courts decision suggested added the carpet as memorandum.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:56 PM
 
Location: southwest TN
8,175 posts, read 14,249,488 times
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Just a general thought on "generic" forms -- even the ones sold to attorneys to use:


The phrase: proven in court - now there isn't a worse phrase at all in my mind.

It tells me that the wording was so poor and open to misinterpretation that it had to be adjudicated to determine its meaning.

There used to be many "form books" for attorneys and often that phrase or similar was used to show what a great form it was. I cringed whenever I read it; and that book did not get into the law library of the firm where I worked.

Hire an attorney for any major issue. If you can't afford to lose, don't do it yourself.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Annie View Post
Hire an attorney for any major issue. If you can't afford to lose, don't do it yourself.

Use of attorneys, in Arizona (and MANY other states) is, to say the least, VERY uncommon.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Illinois
718 posts, read 1,749,464 times
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You can write a legal, binding real estate transaction on a napkin IF you know what to put into it. Those who appear biased about their particular MLS forms or State forms are just used to using them. Realtors can only, by law, "fill in the blanks"....so can you. This isn't brain surgery.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnKK View Post
You can write a legal, binding real estate transaction on a napkin IF you know what to put into it. Those who appear biased about their particular MLS forms or State forms are just used to using them. Realtors can only, by law, "fill in the blanks"....so can you. This isn't brain surgery.
In Arizona, licensees can do far more than "fill in the blanks". We can start from scratch on a blank sheet of paper. We can do Deeds, promissory notes, mortgages, bills of sale and much, much more.
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:13 PM
 
1,722 posts, read 2,269,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
In Arizona, licensees can do far more than "fill in the blanks". We can start from scratch on a blank sheet of paper. We can do Deeds, promissory notes, mortgages, bills of sale and much, much more.
In Texas all those things are considered practicing law without a license...realtors do it all the time but its technically against the law. Unless of course you are doing it for yourself...in which case you can do anything you want for yourself.

I would never purchase a property where anything other the offer was written solely by a realtor...that bar is WAY to low for me!
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:27 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,134,962 times
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Real Estate Agents in most of the West practice law. It is a narrow subset but what they do would clearly be illegal in most of the East. Note that as a results western attorney have very low level of exposure to normal real estate documents. There are of course competent specialists in that area of law but the normal attorney likely has less experience than a seasoned agent. So you may well get a lesser product from an Attorney.

Note that blank forms have weak if any copyright protection. The basic rule is that only literary expression is protected...not ideas. So it is the type face and the layout that has whatever protection is available or perhaps some prose if it has originality. Difficult to suggest that would be true on a real estate document.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
In Texas all those things are considered practicing law without a license...realtors do it all the time but its technically against the law. Unless of course you are doing it for yourself...in which case you can do anything you want for yourself.

I would never purchase a property where anything other the offer was written solely by a realtor...that bar is WAY to low for me!

The "things" we are allowed to do is contained in Article 26 of the Arizona Constitution. It does allowed licensees to engage in a VERY LIMITED PRACTICE OF LAW - and the courts have agreed and upheld Art 26

As I said before - use of lawyers is quite uncommon in residential R.E.

Title and Escrow Companies are heavily involved with the production of many documents (deeds, note, mortgages) however it's also the R.E. licensee's responsibility to review those docs.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Note that blank forms have weak if any copyright protection. The basic rule is that only literary expression is protected...not ideas. So it is the type face and the layout that has whatever protection is available or perhaps some prose if it has originality. Difficult to suggest that would be true on a real estate document.
As I previously stated, the AZ REALTORS forms are copyrighted and that copyright was recently upheld by the courts.
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