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Old 08-06-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,971 posts, read 58,392,088 times
Reputation: 29537

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
The value in the NCAR forms is established by "the original compilation of terms and phrases." Of course, the forms are not published, but are shared privately by dues-paying members who finance the creation of that original compilation.
And if somehow or other a person (like the FSBO seller looking to skate by cutting every corner who started this thread) were to acquire that text and used it even verbatim... what would happen?

This isn't going to be a repeated pattern and other than the people who are a party to the sale...
who is going to see that it's being used?
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:02 PM
 
25,971 posts, read 50,049,668 times
Reputation: 19494
Spirited Debate on a good topic...

Just remember to stay on point and keep it civil.

Local Custom and Legal requirements vary.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:10 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,237,826 times
Reputation: 5400
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
Right.
If you decide to use a blank form, we call that a tablet. Sometimes a legal pad.
No problem.

The terms and phrases are not available to use, and they are myriad on our proprietary forms.
Those forms are not even available to the public, except for clients or customers of NCAR members.

The fascination with copyright is the lengths of rationalization people will use to steal stuff.
Sorry but if you have paragraphs of boiler plate and fill in the blanks as we do it is not a compilation of terms and phrases...it is a blank form. And if great hunks of the form can be found in predecessors of the Boards forms or the forms from other states it is not copyrightable. Only if the Board has a publication with vast hunks of original prose would CR work. I can't imagine how you would develop such a form or for what purpose.

The Copyright office is perfectly aware of what a blank form is and spoke clearly. I would still hold that you may well have an action against xeroxing the forms. But removal of the prose to a new form should generally not violate the CR. After all where do you think the vast majority of that text came from?
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,483,762 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Sorry but if you have paragraphs of boiler plate and fill in the blanks as we do it is not a compilation of terms and phrases...it is a blank form. And if great hunks of the form can be found in predecessors of the Boards forms or the forms from other states it is not copyrightable. Only if the Board has a publication with vast hunks of original prose would CR work. I can't imagine how you would develop such a form or for what purpose.
The Arizona form(s) have HUGH amounts of original language covering inspections, financing, qualifications, home warranties, and on and on and on.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,722,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Actually the matter is rather clear cut..

See...

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ32.pdf.
That article discusses "blank" forms.

The AZ 10-pagePurchase Contract does not fit the description of a blank form.

The fillable portions are for Names, addresses, dates, prices, and terms.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,722,585 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
And if somehow or other a person (like the FSBO seller looking to skate by cutting every corner who started this thread) were to acquire that text and used it even verbatim... what would happen?

This isn't going to be a repeated pattern and other than the people who are a party to the sale...
who is going to see that it's being used?
Escrow officers and their assistants and managers, plus mortgage brokers, and underwriters. They rely on Realtors to send them business, and do what they legally can to woe is for our referrals.

The AAR board, and many other people working with AAR are practicing Realtors. It would be very simple for someone at the escrow office or mortgage office to call their Realtor friend at AAR and inform them of the copyright infringement.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:49 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
26,971 posts, read 58,392,088 times
Reputation: 29537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Escrow officers and their assistants and managers, plus mortgage brokers, and underwriters.
They rely on Realtors to send them business...
OK. Good examples even.
And if a repeating pattern were going on I'd allow that they'll say or do something...
but I don't see them getting their panties in a wad over one instance. <-- The question.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:53 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 10,432,602 times
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I think it is telling that Board offices sponsor day-long CLASSES on the contract for Realtors . . .It is such an important document.

Be careful.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,722,585 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
I think it is telling that Board offices sponsor day-long CLASSES on the contract for Realtors . . .It is such an important document.

Be careful.
Just to further clarify, Realtors pay money for all continuing education classes including contract classes.

Title companies, Home Warranty companies, and others of that type will sponsor by providing coffee and donuts, and for that they get to have about 5 minutes to talk about their company, and to staff a booth all day and have their brochures available.

Some title companies will sponsor some small classes on their own such as real estate apps for the iPad, and such.

There are very strict RESPA guidelines about this sort of activity, and they don't cross that line.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,722,585 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
OK. Good examples even.
And if a repeating pattern were going on I'd allow that they'll say or do something...
but I don't see them getting their panties in a wad over one instance. <-- The question.
I can't speak for them; but why take the chance when the monetary risk/reward ratio is so out of balance?

Any thinking person should have this conversation with him/herself about the options:
  • I can steal this contract and use it for free.
  • I can hire a Realtor, and (as a Buyer) it doesn't cost me anything.
  • If I'm a seller, I can hire a flat fee Realtor and it will only cost me 400-$500, plus the home will be on the MLS
  • If I'm a seller I can also have an attorney draft a contract for me, but that will probably cost a couple thousand dollars, and it won't be on the MLS.
  • And it will strongly favor me, so the seller may reject that contract altogether.
Free sounds good. But, on the other hand, if this is the one time that someone will get caught, it will be me

Now how much is it going to cost me

Probably many thousands of dollars for an attorney, even if it does not go to court.

The risk/reward ratio is too high. So I don't even know why the option of using any copyright document is even being discussed.
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