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Old 08-07-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,684,384 times
Reputation: 3809

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman View Post
If you've closed 50 deals in the past twelve months, Why don't you have a license? Are you trying to avoid liability in these transactions? I'd bet that's the same reason "9 out of 10 listing agents won't open the door" - the liability exceeds the reward.
He claims he is a corporate attorney, and invests in commercial and other real estate. To have a full time job as a corporate attorney and also do 50 real estate transactions in a year is not believable.

 
Old 08-07-2012, 07:47 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 4,142,973 times
Reputation: 2397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
He claims he is a corporate attorney, and invests in commercial and other real estate. To have a full time job as a corporate attorney and also do 50 real estate transactions in a year is not believable.
I agree, but couldn't figure out a nice way to say it. I think that is bull too. Anyone that has that much going on wouldn't be on hear acting like such a schmoob.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,684,384 times
Reputation: 3809
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain Bill
An attorney will charge $300 and up, per hour, and not leave his office. You cannot compare a one hour attorney fee to a completed real estate transaction.
Quote:
by Marksmu........When a buyer already has chosen his property - a realtor on his side is non-essential. Realtors can not grasp that. An attorney is superior in every way in this regard.
Well, since you claim to be an attorney, I would expect you to have a superiority complex.

Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain Bill
What you don't seem to understand is that an unrepresented buyer will cause the agent more work than if he were working with a buyer, and more risk. I explained before that any question the unrepresented buyer asks and is answered by the agent, could create an implied accidental agency, which creates an accidental dual agency, and the agent could be sued for acting as a dual agent without written agreement by both buyer and seller. That is a considerable risk. Not being in the business and not knowing and understanding the laws of agency, it is not surprising that you do not know about this.
Quote:
by Marksmu......I bolded this for you b/c its ridiculous. A realtor is required to send the brokerage letter of representation explaining in detail who he works for on his initial substantive contact with a non-represented buyer....its Agnecy 101...basic, even for a realtor.
In Arizona there is an "Agency Disclosure Election" form which would be signed, but in the discussion at hand, it had not reached that point. The non represented buyer (supposedly) emailed a contract to the listing agent with a cover letter. He demanded the agent submit the cover letter to the buyer because he highlighted in the email cover letter the contract terms and the fact that the seller could save 3% by renegotiating with the listing agent. This was an attempt to interfere with the listing agents third party contract.

The agent is not required to submit the cover letter. He is only required to submit "all offers".


Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain Bill
You apparently have not studied and have no knowledge of the Arizona real estate contracts. The Arizona contracts are designed to protect both parties.

You are only focusing on having an agent reduce commissions because you "think" as many do, that they make too much money.
Quote:
by Marksmu....Realtors/Brokers DO make too much money. They are a leach on homeowners....
...I feel the same way about realtors as I do about the IRS...
I feel the same way about attorneys as you do about Realtors and the IRS. Attorneys don't have the reputation of being Sharks and Ambulance Chaser for nothing.

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Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain Bill
It is much better for all parties concerned if both buyer and seller are represented. That is why in the listing contract is stated that the listing agent will pay a "licensed real estate agent" a commission. He has no obligation to pay an unrepresented buyer the fee; which is what the op is after. And in the case of the OP with the attitude he has displayed, it would be better the seller if he walks.
Quote:
by Marksmu......WRONG - its much better for all REALTORS concerned if both buyer and seller are represented...What is better for all parties is to spend less money to obtain the same thing.....Buyers want the House, Sellers want to get out of the house....Realtors are a middleman adding 6% to the same product for a minimal service.
Your bias toward Realtors and their commissions is well documented in your rants. You are entirelfy focused on agents commissions, while the business risks they assume mean nothing to you,

I understand the risks involved in working with an unrepresented buyer because I am in the business. I also understand the extra work involved, and the tight rope I have to walk if I work with most unrepresented buyers. If you are an attorney, and if you do real estate transactions like you claim, then you should also be aware of those risks.

But then again, it's ok for you if Realtors take risks and get sued because that puts more money into the Sharks pocket.

If you want to keep playing in the mud, then I can probably find some more juicy mudballs about attorneys
 
Old 08-07-2012, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,684,384 times
Reputation: 3809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
AZ REALTORS do not try to interfere with the listing agreement as there is no language in the Purchase offer dealing with ANYTHING related to the commission or commission rate / amount. Commission is between the Seller and Listing Broker.
Right, and just to add a little more, the AZ contract language states that Brokers shall be paid as agreed by "separate" agreements.

If either the buyer or the seller were to make a counter offer and state that the other Realtor is to lower their commission, then that counter is rejecting the previous offer/counter, and the other party may now refuse to respond and the deal is dead. That can lead to liability, depending on whose idea it was to put the commission term in the contract.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,684,384 times
Reputation: 3809
Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
people agree to modifications b/c in the end its better to modify now and get something than not, and then later get nothing.
Not necessarily true, and especially not in all cases.

In many cases in residential real estate the person wanting the modification is being greedy, and looking to take advantage of the other party. So to agree to the modification could signal weakness which would encourage the party to keep coming back to more.

On the other hand, when one asks for a modification, then the other party is now free to ask for quid pro quo, and may actually ask for more that something equal.

Even countering an offer can be risky. Each time there is a counter offer, the contract is effectively rejected, and the other party can refuse to counter back, and just cancel the negotiation.

In Donald Trump type long term projects, where things may change dramatically, then modifications are more common, but they can still lead to be deal killers.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,684,384 times
Reputation: 3809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill
The OP buyer is trying to save money by cutting out a Realtor, so why would he hire an attorney?

Quote:
by RE Skeptic.....Because they have value.
Then why didn't you hire an attorney in the first place if they have value???
 
Old 08-07-2012, 08:40 AM
 
1,726 posts, read 2,276,730 times
Reputation: 3424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
He claims he is a corporate attorney, and invests in commercial and other real estate. To have a full time job as a corporate attorney and also do 50 real estate transactions in a year is not believable.
First I am not a corporate attorney - I am an attorney employed by a corporation...most corporate attorneys do Acquisitions and mergers...I am a general in-house attorney....I handle whatever is brought to me by the company...its not always that much work so I have free time to help others. Sometimes I am very busy - others - like now - not so much.

Second, I am not out there trying to get business buying/selling property....I do what is brought to me. I do all of the work that my family brings in, which is a sizable chunk of my real estate work, plus I do anything pro-bono that employees of the company ask for my help on. I have also done an uncontested divorce if your interested in that? Or possibly you need a bill of sale when you sell your old jalope...Ive done that too...I have NEVER, not even one time accepted payment, commission, or even a dinner for my work done for people. My Errors & Omissions is covered entirely by my company and I have never had a complaint filed against me for my work.

I have helped so many employees that the word is out that all they to do is ask me for help and that I help. They find properties on HAR and ask for my assistance in filling out the contract and negotiating with the seller. It takes very little time on my end. (half the time is spent convincing the listing agent to show them the property without another realtor...many outright refuse which is when I mail letters to the property owner about their representation) I seldom visit the property as where they live is none of my business. My father in law is a mortgage broker who I direct employees to use if they need to be pre-approved for lending. I direct them to an excellent appraiser who I have used for years, an excellent inspector, and I handle the paperwork and phone calls. It may take a total of 3-5 hours for me conclude a purchase for an employee and those hours are spread out over multiple days. Since I'm not a real estate broker and I cant list properties on HAR I generally tell them that they are better off getting a listing agent when they sell b/c without HAR in the Houston area you are not going to sell a house.

In terms of 50 closings - that may be on the low end, I just did not feel the need to go through all of my files and count them....

In addition to working for the employees of our company I also invest on my own - I have 2 rental properties, a house that I live in, and a lot that we are building on in the next few months....I conducted 5 commercial purchases last year in the Houston area for our company, I did a purchase for two of my four brothers when they each bought their second houses and I did the leases on their first houses for them...I did the paperwork on a ranch for my uncle made up of 7 contiguous tracts from 4 different sellers, negotiated the repurchase of mineral rights on one of those tracts, and then leased the oil rights for the 5 tracts that we ended up getting minerals on. I also I did a very small rural tract for my dad. In addition to that I have done 3 pipeline right of ways, and represented our company in a highway condemnation case that settled before trial.

When you are the only attorney in a very large family everyone asks for your help. I'm happy to help them and since we are a family company that is what I get paid to do.

In the end my family appreciates my efforts, but the real reward is to the employees...they have access to an attorney who is willing to work with them for free....In return we have very high employee retention and satisfaction....If its something easy I do it, if its over my head I go looking for specialized legal help to direct them to.

I may come off abrasive towards realtors but that is just b/c I have dealt with so many bad ones that only care about themselves. None of my real estate work for others is done for profit and it is very frustrating to have to deal with people with terrible attitudes towards non-realtors. I believe that realtors are clinging to their ways and protecting their profession by purposefully attempting to exclude and intimidate non-realtors from buying/selling property on their own. I deal with it frequently and it does leave you bitter towards many realtors.

And I have said before - I do not in any way defend the actions of many attorneys. There are lots and lots of bad attorneys out there....I have met plenty of them....but Silverfish said it earlier and is 100% right...its not about realtors vs attorneys or realtors vs non-realtors - its about the quality of the individual....I have met lots of low quality individuals.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 09:06 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 4,142,973 times
Reputation: 2397
Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
First I am not a corporate attorney - I am an attorney employed by a corporation...most corporate attorneys do Acquisitions and mergers...I am a general in-house attorney....I handle whatever is brought to me by the company...its not always that much work so I have free time to help others. Sometimes I am very busy - others - like now - not so much.

Second, I am not out there trying to get business buying/selling property....I do what is brought to me. I do all of the work that my family brings in, which is a sizable chunk of my real estate work, plus I do anything pro-bono that employees of the company ask for my help on. I have also done an uncontested divorce if your interested in that? Or possibly you need a bill of sale when you sell your old jalope...Ive done that too...I have NEVER, not even one time accepted payment, commission, or even a dinner for my work done for people. My Errors & Omissions is covered entirely by my company and I have never had a complaint filed against me for my work.

I have helped so many employees that the word is out that all they to do is ask me for help and that I help. They find properties on HAR and ask for my assistance in filling out the contract and negotiating with the seller. It takes very little time on my end. (half the time is spent convincing the listing agent to show them the property without another realtor...many outright refuse which is when I mail letters to the property owner about their representation) I seldom visit the property as where they live is none of my business. My father in law is a mortgage broker who I direct employees to use if they need to be pre-approved for lending. I direct them to an excellent appraiser who I have used for years, an excellent inspector, and I handle the paperwork and phone calls. It may take a total of 3-5 hours for me conclude a purchase for an employee and those hours are spread out over multiple days. Since I'm not a real estate broker and I cant list properties on HAR I generally tell them that they are better off getting a listing agent when they sell b/c without HAR in the Houston area you are not going to sell a house.

In terms of 50 closings - that may be on the low end, I just did not feel the need to go through all of my files and count them....

In addition to working for the employees of our company I also invest on my own - I have 2 rental properties, a house that I live in, and a lot that we are building on in the next few months....I conducted 5 commercial purchases last year in the Houston area for our company, I did a purchase for two of my four brothers when they each bought their second houses and I did the leases on their first houses for them...I did the paperwork on a ranch for my uncle made up of 7 contiguous tracts from 4 different sellers, negotiated the repurchase of mineral rights on one of those tracts, and then leased the oil rights for the 5 tracts that we ended up getting minerals on. I also I did a very small rural tract for my dad. In addition to that I have done 3 pipeline right of ways, and represented our company in a highway condemnation case that settled before trial.

When you are the only attorney in a very large family everyone asks for your help. I'm happy to help them and since we are a family company that is what I get paid to do.

In the end my family appreciates my efforts, but the real reward is to the employees...they have access to an attorney who is willing to work with them for free....In return we have very high employee retention and satisfaction....If its something easy I do it, if its over my head I go looking for specialized legal help to direct them to.

I may come off abrasive towards realtors but that is just b/c I have dealt with so many bad ones that only care about themselves. None of my real estate work for others is done for profit and it is very frustrating to have to deal with people with terrible attitudes towards non-realtors. I believe that realtors are clinging to their ways and protecting their profession by purposefully attempting to exclude and intimidate non-realtors from buying/selling property on their own. I deal with it frequently and it does leave you bitter towards many realtors.

And I have said before - I do not in any way defend the actions of many attorneys. There are lots and lots of bad attorneys out there....I have met plenty of them....but Silverfish said it earlier and is 100% right...its not about realtors vs attorneys or realtors vs non-realtors - its about the quality of the individual....I have met lots of low quality individuals.
I still don't think you can't be believed about everything you claim to have done, but I must agree with you that there are a lot of bad real estate agents because I deal with them too and have plenty of stories to tell. I also know plenty of unethical lawyers that have hurt people I know, myself included. That said, you can't now claim that your point is about the quality of the individual when your argument all along has been that the buyers agents job has no value. That's just a switcheroo on your part because you are finding yourself losing an argument and don't like it.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 09:09 AM
 
1,726 posts, read 2,276,730 times
Reputation: 3424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Well, since you claim to be an attorney, I would expect you to have a superiority complex.
No superiority complex Im not some big shot high dollar attorney - I am merely recognizing that the barrier to entry in the legal profession is significantly higher than the barrier to entry in the real estate profession. State bars weed out far more unqualified applicants than the real estate exam. Im not saying all lawyers are smarter than realtors, nor am I saying that there are not realtors who are much smarter than lawyers - but in general it is a safe assumption to say that most lawyers are better prepared to handle contract issues than a realtor. That is why in Texas realtors are forbidden from modifying contracts on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
In Arizona there is an "Agency Disclosure Election" form which would be signed, but in the discussion at hand, it had not reached that point. The non represented buyer (supposedly) emailed a contract to the listing agent with a cover letter. He demanded the agent submit the cover letter to the buyer because he highlighted in the email cover letter the contract terms and the fact that the seller could save 3% by renegotiating with the listing agent. This was an attempt to interfere with the listing agents third party contract.
In Texas the submission of an offer is a substantive contact that requires the agency form if the buyer comes unrepresented. I am guessing that the same holds true for Arizona....an offer is a very substantial contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I understand the risks involved in working with an unrepresented buyer because I am in the business. I also understand the extra work involved, and the tight rope I have to walk if I work with most unrepresented buyers. If you are an attorney, and if you do real estate transactions like you claim, then you should also be aware of those risks.

But then again, it's ok for you if Realtors take risks and get sued because that puts more money into the Sharks pocket.
I dont know many agents who get sued. You must be doing something wrong or unethical to have such a problem handling a transaction without a realtor on both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
If you want to keep playing in the mud, then I can probably find some more juicy mudballs about attorneys
There is no shortage of bad attorneys and you wont find me defending them....I call a spade a spade, and when I see something that is being done wrong or not in the best interest of a client I call that out as well.
 
Old 08-07-2012, 09:15 AM
 
1,726 posts, read 2,276,730 times
Reputation: 3424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyngawf View Post
That said, you can't now claim that your point is about the quality of the individual when your argument all along has been that the buyers agents job has no value. That's just a switcheroo on your part because you are finding yourself losing an argument and don't like it.
You need to go back and re-read all of my posts on this thread and the thread related to using a copyrighted offer form.

I have clearly stated that Buyers Agents DO serve a purpose for SOME buyers. However, it is my opinion that realtors are intentionally excluding and intimidating buyers who choose not to be represented by a Buyers agent. There are people who are fully capable of handling a RE transaction without a buyers agent.

Some listing agents have no problem at all dealing with an unrepresented buyer - some flat out will not do it...Buyers agents do serve a purpose but the systematic exclusion and intimidation of unrepresented buyers is unethical.
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