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Old 08-10-2012, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,705,016 times
Reputation: 3810

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfall View Post
When isn't a buyer trying to gain advantage over a seller?
Correct, and I'm there to protect my seller.


Quote:
If that is the case, then you'd need to advise your client to seek legal counsel before agreeing to your listing agreement clause regarding your exclusionary policy and what it means for them.
You're stretching it.

Quote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you telling me that reverse offers are illegal in Arizona?
I didn't say that.

Quote:
You don't counter their offer. You reject their offer and reverse offer on your forms. It is the cleanest way to do things and to my knowledge no state has a law that says that a seller can't initiate the offer process.
Not illegal. The language in the purchase offer is meant for the buyer to submit to the seller.

The Terms of Acceptance is clearly written for the buyer to complete.
Quote:
The AAR Purchase Contract section 8p states:
Terms of Acceptance: This offer will become a binding Contract when acceptance is signed by Seller and a signed copy delivered in person, by email, facsimile or electronically, and received by Broker named in Section 8r by_______________

Buyer may withdraw this offer at any time prior to receipt of Sellers signed acceptance at_______
Your contract may be different, but it would be highly impractical for a seller to fill this form out as an offer to the buyer.

 
Old 08-10-2012, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,705,016 times
Reputation: 3810
[quote=Zyngawf;25570302]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
No, you didn't say anyone was stupid, but it really sounds like you want to treat you clients as though they are.
That's your interpretation. I want to educate my clients and give them choices.

Quote:
This is what I'm talking about. You won't do your job unless it is written on the contract you like. This is to protect you and no one else.
I didn't say I wouldn't do my job. I said I would ADVISE my clients.

Quote:
You missed my point entirely. You have to read it to know what it is. To assume it's bad and reject it just because an attorney wrote it is doing your client a disservice.
Advising my client to consult with an attorney is the best advice I can give - for their protection. If they don't take that advice and have me interpret it and write a counter, I will do that. But they have been advised - for their protection. Advising a client to obtain legal and tax advice is our job.

Quote:
Giving an unrepresented buyer a blank contract to fill out is something I would never do. When they send it back to you filled out wrong then you have to counter to correct everything anyway. I think it's the same difference if it's that or a different contract. Either way I would have to counter to end up with something that would be OK for my seller to sign.
If you want to fill out forms for an unrb that's your choice. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with me giving an unrb the contract form to fill out either. The unrb is representing himself so he should be able to fill out the forms. If we have to counter, we'll counter.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 09:34 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 38,429,852 times
Reputation: 16101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I understand exactly what you're saying, and I think you may be missing Would you not want an agent who is going to look out for your best interest and provide you with advice, rather than one who would not provide that advice and risk you being damaged by that contract, just so he could get your house sold and get a commission?

I want both. I want to see offers on non standard contracts and I want the advice on what they think about that contract (although to be honest I would always use an attorney so the advice on the contract is not all that important to me).

I always have the option of rejecting anything I don't like. I have no option to reject/accept/counter anything I never saw in the first place.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 09:42 AM
 
1,727 posts, read 2,287,035 times
Reputation: 3428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
No one said anyone is stupid. I also did not say I would reject anything. I am the agent and I have no authority to reject anything.
AWFUL lot of backtracking going on here now that you realize what a ridculous statement this was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post

This will be a policy statement that will be in the Risk Management section of my company policy manual, for all agents in my company.
  • Add a clause in the listing agreement that says: "Seller instructs LA to not submit verbal offers or offers not on AAR standard contract forms" (We're not going to accept any napkin drawn or office store forms, or plagiarized forms from other states or web sites, or offers drawn up by an attorney- which will favor the buyer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I said I would ADVISE my client. I said I would inform my client that I am not qualified to interpret that contract for him. I said my advice is to EITHER reject it and get it on the standard contract that I am trained on, or get legal advice.
Actually you said you would instruct all of your salespersons not to accept a contract that is not the one you are used to seeing. Its in writing above - pretty tough to weasel your way to a different answer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
That is for the sole purpose of protecting my client, which is my duty. If the seller looks at the contract and says to go with it, then I follow his instructions as required. But he has been advised.
Really? B/C it looks to me like the only things you are doing are 1) minimizing how much effort you have to use to do the job you were hired to do, and 2) worrying about your interests over those of the client.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Just how far in the buyers favor does it have to be to be scary? Just a little bit in the buyers favor is too much.
This is what is called negotiation. You can bet that every first offer starts off asking for more than they expect to receive...you just want to make your job easier by rejecting everything that you are not used to. Its a ridiculous statement and a disservice to your clients. Your clients may not share your feelings as to what is and is not a risky venture. It appears to me that you are scared of your shadow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
We have an excellent contract in Arizona. It is equal in it's protection for both buyer and seller. A sellers agent can give the blank for to an unrb to fill out. There is absolutely no need to use a third party contract.
Hmmm....if a sellers agent can give your powerful, only for use by realtors, purchase contract - are you not thereby ENCOURAGING an unrepresented buyer to commit copyright infringement....There is a long thread about this where you STRINGENTLY object to an unrepresented buyer using your forms. You can't have it both ways...either an unrepresented buyer can use them or he cant...your copyright license does not allow you to extend it to whomever you please. If it really is a valid copyright, which I still highly doubt, your license to use it probably does not extend to giving it away.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,705,016 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
Hmmm....if a sellers agent can give your powerful, only for use by realtors, purchase contract - are you not thereby ENCOURAGING an unrepresented buyer to commit copyright infringement...
Not copyright infringement at all.

We are allowed to use the contract in our transaction. The unrb is in my transaction, therefore, I can furnish the contract to him, or her.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,705,016 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
I want both. I want to see offers on non standard contracts and I want the advice on what they think about that contract (although to be honest I would always use an attorney so the advice on the contract is not all that important to me).

I always have the option of rejecting anything I don't like. I have no option to reject/accept/counter anything I never saw in the first place.
And you have that option. The seller is the boss of the team. The agent provides suggestions and advice. It's good that you always have an attorney provide advice.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Tempe, Arizona
4,511 posts, read 11,588,940 times
Reputation: 2190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfall View Post
...
rjrcm, true? In AZ a seller can't reverse offer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
...

Not illegal. The language in the purchase offer is meant for the buyer to submit to the seller.

The Terms of Acceptance is clearly written for the buyer to complete.
Your contract may be different, but it would be highly impractical for a seller to fill this form out as an offer to the buyer.
Silverfall, as Bill indicates, our purchase offer contract is intended for the buyer to fill out, not the seller. Although not illegal, we do not have a standard contract that is intended for a "reverse offer" by the seller. Filling out the standard contract for the buyer with the seller's terms would not appear to be prudent.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,069 posts, read 12,705,016 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrcm View Post
Silverfall, as Bill indicates, our purchase offer contract is intended for the buyer to fill out, not the seller. Although not illegal, we do not have a standard contract that is intended for a "reverse offer" by the seller. Filling out the standard contract for the buyer with the seller's terms would not appear to be prudent.
Right, and agents in other states should consider the fact that contract forms and laws are different in each state and they should not be criticizing other agents for the way they legally conduct business in their state.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Needham, MA
6,330 posts, read 9,076,123 times
Reputation: 5324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
To counter a contract, you sign the contract to accept all the terms except the items you counter in the counter offer form. You are still subjecting the client to that initial contract.

The purchase offer has to be written by the buyer, not the seller. Therefore, if we want the buyer to present a new offer on our form it has to be written by the buyer and presented. It does not make sense for the seller to write the purchase offer and send it to the buyer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfall View Post
This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you telling me that reverse offers are illegal in Arizona?

You don't counter their offer. You reject their offer and reverse offer on your forms. It is the cleanest way to do things and to my knowledge no state has a law that says that a seller can't initiate the offer process.

rjrcm, true? In AZ a seller can't reverse offer?
This kind of discussion makes me a little sad that I stopped posting in this thread. I absolutely love ot hear how real estate is done in other parts of the country. You never know when you will learn something of value for the future.

As a contrast, in MA we don't have a counter offer form nor is there a counter offer section on the offer forms provided by our Realtor organizations. We write up the initial offer, negotiate verbally, and then when everyone is in agreement we write it up again (or alter the original).

Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
Hmmm....if a sellers agent can give your powerful, only for use by realtors, purchase contract - are you not thereby ENCOURAGING an unrepresented buyer to commit copyright infringement....There is a long thread about this where you STRINGENTLY object to an unrepresented buyer using your forms. You can't have it both ways...either an unrepresented buyer can use them or he cant...your copyright license does not allow you to extend it to whomever you please. If it really is a valid copyright, which I still highly doubt, your license to use it probably does not extend to giving it away.
This comment however . . . makes me pretty glad I'm no longer an active participant in this thread.
 
Old 08-10-2012, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
8,862 posts, read 17,493,686 times
Reputation: 6250
In all actuality I never saw anywhere that Bill would reject the offer. I'm sure if a verbal offer came in he'd instruct the agent to write it up so he could present it to his seller. That is a far cry from rejecting an offer.
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