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Location: Mokelumne Hill, CA & El Pescadero, BCS MX.
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I would say that ANYTHING attached to the home has become a fixture, including speakers which are either external to the wall and bolted to it, or are installed flush with the sheetrock. Any wiring internal to the walls would become a fixture on installation.
Any personal property attached permanently to real estate becomes a fixture on installation. Think about the difference between a refrigerator and a dishwasher. The refer usually rolls on wheels and is plugged in, the dishwasher is screwed into the bottom of the counter top and may be plugged in, but is usually hard wired to the electrical circuit. Trash compactors are usually fixtures too. Electric ranges are usually plugged in, but gas ranges are plumbed into the gas service and would be considered fixtures.
In any case, local custom dictates, but the disposition of any item in doubt ought to be written into the contract to remove any doubt about the intent of the parties.
We don't have a system of our own yet, so it would be great to have these speakers--if we can do so without alienating the sellers. Perhaps we could ask the sellers to name a price for the whole system (floor speaker and control unit included) that reflects an interpretation of the contract as stated by DMenscha above?
I think the wires are fixtures, but not the mountings or speakers themselves based on what you describe. People have wall mounted televisions, and they are in no way a fixture in the house.
Why don't you find out what kind of speakers they are and see how much they cost new. If the whole system goes together, then I would negotiate a price for replacement speakers, or you can do what you are talking about and offer to purchase the entire system.
Obviously the agents should have talked about this at the time of contract, but since that didn't occur just be reasonable folks and hash it out.
With more and more folks have surround sound wired in, I think your scenario is going to be more common.
If the listing agent didn't ask her client, Mr. and Mrs. Seller their intentions with the surround sound...remove before listing and fix the walls, or that it remained....she/he messed up and she should rectify the situation. This is a business.....realtors need to do the complete job. If her sellers want to keep their own speakers and you and your agent thought you were going to get them because they were not excluded.....another realtor obfuscation.
Silverfall, I believe the speakers are attached to mountings bolted to the wall. Their offer to patch up where the speakers are mounted suggests they want to take speakers and wiring? Perhaps the compromise will be to leave the mountings and wiring in place.
The patching part might just be cleaning up the screw holes in the wall, like you'd do after removing a picture hung on the wall. It'd be fairly petty to go through the expense of pulling out wiring - that's a lot of effort on their part to recover something that sells for way less than a dollar a foot. If they've been reasonable so far, I'd assume the best (but verify, of course).
I think your last sentence here is reasonable as is your idea to make the system a side-deal. Remember that it's not that much work to wall-mount speakers, and if they bought the system more than a few years ago it's outdated already so don't get too caught up in a "have to have it" approach. The big hassle is running wires in the first place.
DMensha is on the right track -- if ain't yet in the contract it is a negotiating point. Some folks spend BIG MONEY even on the wire and mounts and are very picky about that sort of thing. This is definitely a new enough development that NOTHING should be assumed.
Just as contracts in my neck of the woods routinely list the attachments and window covering when they are things like expensive "plantation style" shutters, custom closet systems or walls of designer shelves with hidden mounting hardware it is imperative that BOTH parties understand and feel good about what is being "left behind"...
I think the wires are fixtures, but not the mountings or speakers themselves based on what you describe. People have wall mounted televisions, and they are in no way a fixture in the house.
Why don't you find out what kind of speakers they are and see how much they cost new. If the whole system goes together, then I would negotiate a price for replacement speakers, or you can do what you are talking about and offer to purchase the entire system.
Obviously the agents should have talked about this at the time of contract, but since that didn't occur just be reasonable folks and hash it out.
With more and more folks have surround sound wired in, I think your scenario is going to be more common.
Right on target as always and along the lines of your previous post, when initially listing the property attached items of sentimental or high end value that would or could be considered a fixture should be addressed and, if they're not part of a sale, they should be made an exclusion. I've had some clients who still wanted to use the 'excluded' items while the house was on the market and while I did 'recommend' they were taken down/removed or they could be subject to becoming a negotiating factor, if they were insistent then we would put little tags indicating they were not part of the sale so no confusion on the part of potential buyers. If they were in fact something a buyer really wanted then it was negotiated. But at least people were clear from the beginning what was part of the purchase price and what wasn't.
When you are buying or selling a house and the current owner has run speaker wires through the walls for their surround sound system, is it typically assumed that will stay or go? Not sure if it matters or note, but the wiring in this instance came with the the system (boise). It isn't mandatory that the wires be run through the walls, but it was how it's frequently done. It's not a house that was prewired for surround sound.
This became an issue for us in a recent sale/purchase and wanted real estate professional's thoughts to avoid any misunderstandings in the future.
We took our speakers...left the wires hanging outside the hole. Buyer never commented, so we were good to go.
Update. We asked the sellers for information on their surround sound system and asked them to name a price for the attached speakers and the unattached items (a floor subwoofer, the receiver, and a center horizontal speaker). They're asking $350. The next generation of just the front speakers and subwoofer retails for $399. They're also offering to help us to integrate it with our system, if needed. Very reasonable, so we've decided to accept their offer.
Update. We asked the sellers for information on their surround sound system and asked them to name a price for the attached speakers and the unattached items (a floor subwoofer, the receiver, and a center horizontal speaker). They're asking $350. The next generation of just the front speakers and subwoofer retails for $399. They're also offering to help us to integrate it with our system, if needed. Very reasonable, so we've decided to accept their offer.
Thanks for all of the replies.
Excellent! Win/Win all around
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